Axel from Germany
Novice Class
Posts: 34
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posted September 30, 2009 04:02 AM
Which AFR value is the maximum power ?
Hello,
i have AFR 13, Is better 12.8 for maximum performance?
  
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted September 30, 2009 04:10 AM
that depends on the fuel .... take it on the autobahn for a top end run and see which is faster:-)
Roy
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted September 30, 2009 04:23 AM
quote:
that depends on the fuel .... take it on the autobahn for a top end run and see which is faster:-)
Roy
hell yeah .. thats how you fix A/F's
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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Compton
Zone Head
Posts: 969
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posted September 30, 2009 05:08 AM
every bike is different, put it on a dyno and find out.
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b.w.
zx14, little longer, little louder, little lower.
08 Busa, just a little longer and louder and lower than the 14
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted September 30, 2009 05:59 AM
When my bike was dyno'd on pump gas we leaned it off a bit at peak rpm and found more power but you need to stay in the safe A/F zone.
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Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted September 30, 2009 06:06 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 30 Sep 2009 14:06
The best dyno numbers are not likely to produce the best performance at the track.
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted September 30, 2009 06:39 AM
Agreed, the smoother the air/fuel curve, the better the drivability will be and the smoother the power output will be but that's not what he asked.
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Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted September 30, 2009 07:19 AM
You would probably see better dragstrip performance with 12.8 than 13:1 a/f actual. However, it depends on whether you have the kleen system active as to what the sniffer will see on the dyno.
Shane
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salsa1
Needs a life
Posts: 5971
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posted September 30, 2009 08:12 AM
quote:
every bike is different, put it on a dyno and find out. ['quote]
The track is the ultimate test.....we talking 1/4 mile concerns I assume....
between 12.7-13.2 somewhere ...again the times and results aty the track speak even louder than a dyno...according to my research....some dyno guys just do all bikes for 13.1:1
but ambient conditions can alter your results...so unless you have the means to compensate for temperature and the other varying factors which contribute to best performance for that day you will need to settle for a compromized value.....
which is ok...but not optimized for the conditions for the given day you might want to race.... 
I have onboard means of collecting data for that...but it takes a whole lot of logging results to arrive at best ratio for varying conditions.....so I settle for about 12.9:1 regardless of the conditions for a given day.... the hard core racer can change the ratio if he really wants to..it can be done....just time consuming to arrive at....
one hp more or less who cares....
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Salsa1
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Axel from Germany
Novice Class
Posts: 34
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posted September 30, 2009 09:08 AM
quote:
You would probably see better dragstrip performance with 12.8 than 13:1 a/f actual. However, it depends on whether you have the kleen system active as to what the sniffer will see on the dyno.
Shane
I always go with the Dynojet autotune and programmed for 13 full throttle AFR.
I've found with 13 AFR 10 HP
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted September 30, 2009 10:42 AM
Some would consider the 13:1 a little lean for racing conditions. The only way to know what works best is to compare performance at the race track.
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bruno nadeau
Expert Class
Posts: 174
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posted October 01, 2009 12:29 AM
posted September 21, 2009 06:55 PM
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AFR?
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i made some test today and i got some surprising numbers.bike zx14 09se KN air filter no flys yosh R77 full.these 2 run were made at the same place 5 minutes between and the road is going up a little.the 2 run were take in the log well after the throttle was full.run 1:my motty was set to 12,9 afr but the map was not completty built i get number from 12.8 to 13,1 on the log(PC5 autotune recommande 13,2 to 13 target afr at full throttle, i am close) and from 70 to 150 MPH it take 7,616 seconds in 4 gear.run 2 same as above but no map at all,afr was betwenn 13 to 11,9,it take 7,744 seconds difference is.128 seconds to gain 80 mph.in my mind there is no difference.i double check it with another logger(lm2 inovate)about the same result .rpm went from 4920 to10300.i was thinking that AFR was more important than that.i also find that removing flys on a 09 dont bring the afr to lean(i made the same test in 3 gear less difference in time).what do you think.thank
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bruno nadeau
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Axel from Germany
Novice Class
Posts: 34
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posted October 01, 2009 02:02 AM
quote:
posted September 21, 2009 06:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFR?
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i made some test today and i got some surprising numbers.bike zx14 09se KN air filter no flys yosh R77 full.these 2 run were made at the same place 5 minutes between and the road is going up a little.the 2 run were take in the log well after the throttle was full.run 1:my motty was set to 12,9 afr but the map was not completty built i get number from 12.8 to 13,1 on the log(PC5 autotune recommande 13,2 to 13 target afr at full throttle, i am close) and from 70 to 150 MPH it take 7,616 seconds in 4 gear.run 2 same as above but no map at all,afr was betwenn 13 to 11,9,it take 7,744 seconds difference is.128 seconds to gain 80 mph.in my mind there is no difference.i double check it with another logger(lm2 inovate)about the same result .rpm went from 4920 to10300.i was thinking that AFR was more important than that.i also find that removing flys on a 09 dont bring the afr to lean(i made the same test in 3 gear less difference in time).what do you think.thank
The Tuner in Germany recommend 12.8 - 13.0 and when I drive on Highway 10 KM full throttle and then look in the exhaust, which is gray. Gray is good, black is too rich, too thin white.
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted October 01, 2009 01:50 PM
I have been running my zx14 at the track with 13.4 to 13.5 .. I feel with ram air it's losing power from being so lean ... I put the bike back on the dyno and tunned it to 13.0 from 8000 RPMs up .... Nice flat line from 8000 to redline ... I will test it next week and see if it picks up .... I may still have to go fatter , maybe 12.9 or 12.8 because of the ram air ... I'm just not sure how much the ram air changes the a/f .. On the dyno i only lost 1 HP going from 13.4 to 13.0 , i was thinking i would lose more hp than that .. I'll know more after some track testing ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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08green
Expert Class
Posts: 188
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posted October 01, 2009 02:13 PM
Let us know smoke...
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2004 ZX10
2008 ZX14
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JDC
Zone Head
Posts: 570
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posted October 01, 2009 07:57 PM
You know, after more than 300 pulls on dynos, on one bike, the M 109, 13.1 came to be about spot on for fastest TTD. On the 14 it has been, normally near the same, but you may find it different depending on altitude, etc.
I also found on my 109 that I could budge 1/10th by one-tenth, more lean, until about 13.8-13.9 with no meaningful difference in the TTD. Once I hit about 13.9 on that bike, I lost 12 HP and a few TQ on bottom and TTD increased by 1/4 second. It took less change, going more rich, to mess with the TTD.
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bruno nadeau
Expert Class
Posts: 174
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posted October 01, 2009 08:38 PM
quote:
You know, after more than 300 pulls on dynos, on one bike, the M 109, 13.1 came to be about spot on for fastest TTD. On the 14 it has been, normally near the same, but you may find it different depending on altitude, etc.
I also found on my 109 that I could budge 1/10th by one-tenth, more lean, until about 13.8-13.9 with no meaningful difference in the TTD. Once I hit about 13.9 on that bike, I lost 12 HP and a few TQ on bottom and TTD increased by 1/4 second. It took less change, going more rich, to mess with the TTD.[/quote
excuse my ignorance but what is TTD andTQ. thank
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bruno nadeau
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted October 02, 2009 03:22 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 2 Oct 2009 11:27
quote:
I have been running my zx14 at the track with 13.4 to 13.5 .. I feel with ram air it's losing power from being so lean ... I put the bike back on the dyno and tuned it to 13.0 from 8000 RPMs up .... Nice flat line from 8000 to redline ... I will test it next week and see if it picks up .... I may still have to go fatter , maybe 12.9 or 12.8 because of the ram air ... I'm just not sure how much the ram air changes the a/f .. On the dyno i only lost 1 HP going from 13.4 to 13.0 , i was thinking i would lose more hp than that .. I'll know more after some track testing ..
Smokin, On the ZX12r any added air from the ramair system is compensated for by the ECU by using a MAP and VE table. The VE table in the factory ECU can be modified also.
I tuned my bike for 12.4 on the dyno and at well over 200 mph the A/F ratio was still 12.4 +/- .1 and the airbox pressure was about 28mb at 219 mph.
I have found that the best A/F ratio for peak dyno numbers is about 12.8-13.2 Depends on the cams, compression, cam timing, type of fuel etc.
But the best track power is somewhere fatter. Usually .2-.4 fatter.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted October 02, 2009 05:47 AM
fatten it up for the ram air
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2006 Black ZX-14,6 inches over,16/42, flies out,BMC Street Filter,Brock's Street Meg,Brock's Radial Mount Strap,PClll with Race map,Dynojet LCD w/Techmount, ZX-14 fender eliminator,Pilot Power2CTs,Speedohealer,Pazzo Levers,Cox Radiator Guard, Garmin Nuvi 265WT
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted October 02, 2009 02:11 PM
Thanks Guys & Y2KZX12R for the info . I'll post up the outcome of the up coming testing .. I have stacks of 5.72 @ 123 1/8 mile time tickets from my 09 zx14 for baselines ...My 09 zx14 is running dead on allmost every pass so a change in Mapping should show up quickly ... I have not run the bike in the 1/4 mile with the mods i have now to get a 1/4 mile baseline ..I need to work on that 1/4 mile because i'm sure the ram air will be more important in the 1/4 mile than 1/8 mile ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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JDC
Zone Head
Posts: 570
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posted October 02, 2009 10:56 PM
quote:
quote:
You know, after more than 300 pulls on dynos, on one bike, the M 109, 13.1 came to be about spot on for fastest TTD. On the 14 it has been, normally near the same, but you may find it different depending on altitude, etc.
I also found on my 109 that I could budge 1/10th by one-tenth, more lean, until about 13.8-13.9 with no meaningful difference in the TTD. Once I hit about 13.9 on that bike, I lost 12 HP and a few TQ on bottom and TTD increased by 1/4 second. It took less change, going more rich, to mess with the TTD.[/quote
excuse my ignorance but what is TTD andTQ. thank
Time To Distance (1/4 mile) and torque (TQ)
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