epd345
Pro
Posts: 1494
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posted September 27, 2009 07:41 AM
Ivans TRE question
I am thinking about adding a TRE to my 14 since my flys are still in. Is this compatible with my current PC III map/pipe set up or will I have to remap. Is it just plug and play or is it more complicated. Thanks for your assistance
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2012 ZX14, Ceramic Coated Brock's CT Meg, PCV, throttlemeister
  
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freddie900
Expert Class
zx 14 2007
Posts: 152
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posted September 27, 2009 07:58 AM
Remove the flies and save your money on the TRE !!!!!!!!!!!!! Get a 16 tooth front sprocket instead for $30.00 or less.
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rich s
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Posts:
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posted September 27, 2009 07:58 AM
What's a TRE?
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epd345
Pro
Posts: 1494
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posted September 27, 2009 08:33 AM
I know Freddie I should but If I can pick up a TRE cheap at least I can start to get the felling of what the bike feels like without flies! Rich a TRE is timing retard eliminator. Goggle Ivans TRE.
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2012 ZX14, Ceramic Coated Brock's CT Meg, PCV, throttlemeister
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LAB3
Needs a job
Posts: 2977
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posted September 27, 2009 09:29 AM
Rich was kidding.......I think.........I added a TRE from Ivans and added a Muzzy timing advancer at 4 degrees advance. No More back Fireing at 3500 RPM when you let of
the gas. The Drag Races could care less and some say the TRE will slow your 1/4 mile ET by a 1/10 or so. (the reason I added the Muzzy advancer) Ivans map for the TRE and Yosh exhaust works Great on my Muzzy M14 exhaust. My friend purchased a Yoush system and TRE and added a advancer per Ivans Dyno Charts so I tried his map so we are even when we do roll on's :-) yes I can inch him out the Muzzy makes more low end faster and holds it own on the top end :-) If you can live with out the gear indicator (shows N ) it sure is smooth and Quiet. Look at Ivans Dyno Charts as he sells many different exhaust systems and custom makes the maps for each system.for the Street.
If I was Drag Racing ONLY go Brocks. I wanted his Gen3 street system but I purchased Shanes M14 for 1/2 the price of a new brocks . glad I did Sticksand stones M14 beat gilbertjj Brocks on a the dyno shoot out :-).
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Wheelie
Needs a life
Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted September 27, 2009 10:35 AM
quote:
What's a TRE?
thats my line!
whats a tre?
wee
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14nooby
Zone Head
Posts: 987
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posted September 27, 2009 10:52 AM
I don't understand who or why anyone would waste money on a tre? Funniest one was a guy I know pulled his flys then put on the TRE. Buy a $6 screwdriver and pop those flys out.
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LAB3
Needs a job
Posts: 2977
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posted September 27, 2009 11:12 AM
I explained why............... Popping on the street.............. it was NOT a waste to me. I HATED the fire spitting out the back at night, really good on the packing on the silencer.
You Drag Race .......ride it on a 1500 mile trip and see if you still like the noise.
Two each his own but to say I wasted my money is incorrect. But that is your
opinion. I think it is a waste of money to buy a new 14 and just race it a few times each week end and then it sets. But to each his own.
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Rideharder
Zone Head
Posts: 821
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posted September 28, 2009 06:36 AM
Remember there is two different TRE one is with flys in and one is without flys..
The one that reads six gear is the TRE with flys in and the one that reads neutral is flys out.
I did not like either so I went with the Speedo Healer and was able to keep my gear indicator.
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epd345
Pro
Posts: 1494
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posted September 28, 2009 09:26 AM
Im going to try the flys in TRE, I think its TRE-008, Will I have to remap when I add that.....if anyone knows? Will it just plug and play with my PCIII?
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2012 ZX14, Ceramic Coated Brock's CT Meg, PCV, throttlemeister
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LAB3
Needs a job
Posts: 2977
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posted September 28, 2009 09:58 AM
 Edited By: LAB3 on 28 Sep 2009 18:00
On my 2007 my TRE is NOT for flys to open sooner. Mine shows N and stops the back fire . Plug and ride. Call Ivans Performance and ask or read on his site about the map.
I do not remember about the 2008/2009. My Speeo Healer just corrects for the
larger rear sprocket I run.
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Newf14
Zone Head
2007 ZX1400
Posts: 563
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posted September 28, 2009 03:33 PM
I have a TRE-008 like you want to try I am taking it out of my bike within a week or so interested in it?? It worked well for me and gave more bottom end for shur but now I am ready for the full effect ,fly's are comming out this winter.
Newf14
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eklipse636
Needs a life
ZX-14
Posts: 6046
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posted September 28, 2009 04:23 PM
When I put the correct map in my 06 the backfiring went to a min.. I agree noob, its a waste if you can get the same performance by just snatching the flies out. I personally would hate it reading neutral all the time after 3 years of having the gear indicator..
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Best: 60ft 1.351 1/8 5.68 mph 123.98 1/4
8.89 mph 151.32
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heraser
Expert Class
Tall Blue 14
Posts: 259
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posted September 28, 2009 04:31 PM
I have the flys out TRE and my bike never backfires. I don't miss the gear indicator cause the only gear I care about is neutral which has a light anyway. Most times I'm parking in gear anyway because I don't want it to roll or have an idiot try to push it. To each his own but Ivan did my work and he did what he said he would do which would make my bike smooth and fast. 
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Blue '07 Racetech Fork Kit/Ohlins Rear
Ivan Tuned Fast and SMOOTH!
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LAB3
Needs a job
Posts: 2977
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posted September 28, 2009 05:00 PM
quote:
When I put the correct map in my 06 the backfiring went to a min.. I agree noob, its a waste if you can get the same performance by just snatching the flies out. I personally would hate it reading neutral all the time after 3 years of having the gear indicator..
It was not about performance + or - so much as hated to fire out the back at night
not good on packing in silencer. Street bike 99% of the time. With the 2007 fly's
out was Big improvment down low :-) Ivans map and advancer with the N TRE made it smoother, faster and Quiet, then when the fly's were in. I tried 5 different maps from different tuners and backfire Never went away until TRE 006 ( I think) it's been a year.
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bluechris
Expert Class
hungry fool
Posts: 145
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posted September 28, 2009 05:51 PM
quote:
I don't understand who or why anyone would waste money on a tre? Funniest one was a guy I know pulled his flys then put on the TRE. Buy a $6 screwdriver and pop those flys out.
How badly will it run without a pc3 and flys out? can't afford pipe and pc3 right now so is it ridable without pc?
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ride safe
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rich s
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Posts:
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posted September 28, 2009 06:11 PM
yes
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eklipse636
Needs a life
ZX-14
Posts: 6046
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posted September 28, 2009 06:21 PM
I thought without a pc pulling the flies was a big nono.. Wouldn't it make it go lean on the bottom end?
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Best: 60ft 1.351 1/8 5.68 mph 123.98 1/4
8.89 mph 151.32
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zixxer14
Pro
Damn that was Quick
Posts: 1233
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posted September 28, 2009 06:33 PM
Don't forget the tre also changes the power curve in the lower gears that kawi so thoughtfully muted for YOUR safety. Each gear is mapped differently in the ecu with reduced power lower down until 4th gear. Can't change that with just flies out. Also ivan's map ran much smooter in my bike than any other map I tried, besides no backfire.
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freddie900
Expert Class
zx 14 2007
Posts: 152
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posted September 29, 2009 10:43 AM
quote:
Don't forget the tre also changes the power curve in the lower gears that kawi so thoughtfully muted for YOUR safety. Each gear is mapped differently in the ecu with reduced power lower down until 4th gear. Can't change that with just flies out. Also ivan's map ran much smooter in my bike than any other map I tried, besides no backfire.
Does having a pc change the power curve when you get it coustom mapped or the pc has nothing to do with the ecu?
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LAB3
Needs a job
Posts: 2977
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posted September 29, 2009 11:23 AM
Edited By: LAB3 on 29 Sep 2009 19:37
The PC "piggy backs" a different map from the stock map in the ECM. Yes a custom map
changes the air/fuel ratio for any other bolt on performance parts, exhaust etc. You have to
have a PC Power Commander to store the new map. Soon someone will figure out
how to edit the bikes ECU and have a Dyno Tune done and the tuner will write to the bikes
computer instead of the PC.
He is also talkig about the 2008/2009 models have a different factory map so the
secondary butterflys will open sooner for better mid range HP and Torque. The 2006
and 2007 needed flys out more because the stock map Did Not open them as soon as the later models. I would pull the flys on any model ZX-14 and change the map with a
Power Commander or a Bazzaz F.I. Tuner. Makes a 14 Faster, Smoother and now
you can remap every time you add a performance part. All this does is you keep the Air/Fuel
ratio for best Performance and so you will not lean out the system and hurt a piston.
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rich s
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posted September 29, 2009 11:38 AM
Do some digging, running flies out without a PC does create a lean spot but many have used their bikes for a while before getting a PC with no problems.
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RidgeRacer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted September 30, 2009 04:33 AM
Now that we can reflash the zx-14 I hope to track down some of these issues and determine exactly what is going on inside the ECU when you use the different TREs. I don't think the TRE will turn out to have the effect some of you think it has.
Unlike the Suzukis the 14 does not have individual ignition and fuel maps by gear. It basically has a base map for each cylinder and a neutral map. That doesn't mean the gear position has no effect on timing and fueling but it is not set up with 86 different ignition maps like the GSXR / Busas. At least not the 06/07. Also on the GSXRs and ZX-6 our dyno results show you make more power with the flies in than out, that is once you flash out the restrictions.
Here is an example of some of the gear maps that I've found. Based on experience with other bikes it looks like a secondary throttle map but I haven't had a chance to trace the code from the map to the servo control yet so I won't swear to it. This map set has a neutral, 1st2nd, 3rd4th, and 5th6th map. The neutral and 1st2nd are identical. Comparing the 1st2nd to the 5th6th gives you an idea of what using a 6th gear TRE does, at least one aspect of it anyway.
"1st2nd gear map"
"5th6th gear map"
"Compare map 5th6th minus 1st2nd"
X axis across the top is RPM, Y axis down the left is % Throttle
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LAB3
Needs a job
Posts: 2977
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posted September 30, 2009 04:58 AM
Edited By: LAB3 on 30 Sep 2009 12:59
I was told that my 2007 is in the N map. They said it was a non emission map??
I would like to compair the maps on my 2007 and see what the N map is doing before the PCIII changes it.
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RidgeRacer
Pro
Posts: 1309
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posted September 30, 2009 06:12 AM
quote:
I was told that my 2007 is in the N map. They said it was a non emission map??
I would like to compair the maps on my 2007 and see what the N map is doing before the PCIII changes it.
There are no Neutral Fuel maps that I can find.
The Fuel maps are always the largest maps in memory and as such are pretty hard to miss. In that ECU there are nine 38x21 and nine 38x18 and they very much look like fuel maps. If you compare the maps you find in both sets that 1,2,3, and 4 are slightly different from each other but that
1 = 5
2 = 6
3 = 7
4 = 8
That very much looks like two sets of individual cylinder maps. I don't see any way you make gear maps out of that. But what about the ninth map? A common neutral map?
The 9th map in both sets is all filled with the same number and is most likely a trim map that would add/subtract fuel across all cylinders. (When we do start flashing fuel that will come in handy ) But even if it was a neutral only trim map it is set to all 0 offset.
Now again the 14 is Mitsubishi and I mostly work with Denso and Suzukis so there me be other things going on in neutral I'm not familiar with but there are no full size neutral only fuel or ignition maps.
Actually this may be more a Kawasaki thing than a Mitsubishi one. The 05/06 ZX-6, which is a Denso, does not have any neutral fuel maps either.
What exactly is running the bike in neutral supposed to change? Fuel, Ignition, or ???
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