dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted August 13, 2009 08:12 AM
That damage was done before the motor was ever opened up... completely stock from the factory!
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
  
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bigwil
Expert Class
06 zx 14 turbo stage 3
Posts: 423
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posted August 13, 2009 10:58 AM
got the new oil punp cover today and yes the stock one was all scraped up, cleaned the pickup all kinds of shit in it .orderad the counter balance shafts and new bearings ,and new cometic head gasket got .030 they where out of the thin ones and i git to have this bike ready for next weekend for 2 wheelspeed
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bigwil// going fast aint easy so turbo it
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bigwil
Expert Class
06 zx 14 turbo stage 3
Posts: 423
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posted August 13, 2009 11:01 AM
hey dubious did you put a extra washer between the oil pump cover
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bigwil// going fast aint easy so turbo it
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted August 13, 2009 11:40 AM
thats the plan, My new pump just showed up, old one was chewed up, oh and the muzzy has a deeper groove for the washer than stock, I am thinking 2 washer will be about right, but not sure yet., I might get a new washer machined if necessary.
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
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posted August 13, 2009 01:25 PM
 Edited By: kawasakijockey on 13 Aug 2009 21:38
Guys, that gearotor oil pump is not designed the way you think. The gearotors are supposed to float hydrodynamically in the pump housing once it builds any pressure. If you offset the rotor by shimming it out it most likely wont make good oil pressure.
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Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
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kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
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posted August 13, 2009 01:50 PM
Also, you can lap that pump end plate on a sheet of glass with 600grit wet paper wetted with wd-40 to take those scratches down. Just a few thousanths, you dont have to completely remove the marks.
____________
Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
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billeason
Zone Head
Posts: 711
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posted August 13, 2009 02:07 PM
quote:
That damage was done before the motor was ever opened up... completely stock from the factory!
I was referring to bigwill's post about setting the clutch. If he had the basket out is what i was getting at................................Bill
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bill eason
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bigwil
Expert Class
06 zx 14 turbo stage 3
Posts: 423
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posted August 13, 2009 04:22 PM
bill yes i no what you mean it can be a pain getting the gears allined ive had the basket out a few times but didnt have it out when i was setting up my clutch tha other day
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bigwil// going fast aint easy so turbo it
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted August 13, 2009 06:35 PM
Edited By: 1badzx12r on 14 Aug 2009 02:36
did you ever think that your oil pressure sending unit may be bad or plugged.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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chrisrok
Novice Class
Posts: 63
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posted August 17, 2009 02:59 AM
Hello Guys, the zx14 does have a few issues with the oiling systems than can be repaired. I actually restrict some of the less critical oil passages in the motor to increase pressures in more critical areas like the main oil valley. And secondly concerning the oil pump; if you ever prime the oil pump by hand (clutch basket out of motor), you will see that it actually leaks where it is put together with the three allen head bolts. Kawasaki does not use a o-ring here for some odd reason. But if you take your time and use a small amount of bonding agent/sealer you can actually fix that issue. That is another reason why I refuse to use real light viscosity oils in a zx motor. Another oiling issue with turbo bikes using scavenge pumps is you need to compensate for the amount of oil loss you have in that system while the motor is running. Generally speaking spun rod bearings are generally caused by poor oil supply (cavitation, Wheelies, dirty sump(clutch material), not enough oil, etc.) and by improper crank/rod set up. In the motors that I put together, it is not uncommon to take a brand new set of Carillio or Falicon rods and have them re-sized for more clearance right out the box. Proper bearing clearance is ultra critical in plain bearing motor. Motorcycle engines are not as forgiving as a small block chevy. And we dont have twenty five different bearing sizes to choose from when putting together a bike motor either. In fact Kawasaki has only three rod bearing sizes to choose from, so therefore you better have that crank/rods sized correctly. If not in a short matter of time you will be greeted with a rod knock and rewarded with some fools gold in you oil (bearing material)! In my opinion the zx14 is one of the best motors on the market for supporting high horsepower levels if done correctly. Another big enemy for rod/bearing failure is detonation. Detonation can be the result of improper tuning, poor fuel quality, and timing issues. In the case of turbo bikes; turbochargers that are sized wrong for the use or application can cause detonation without even hearing it take place. Detonation is like a big hammer that slaps that piston back down as it reaches the combustion chamber and in turn it starts to flat spot the bearings leading to failure. I actually do not remove any timing (retard) from my super street race motors, even with 20 psi of boost. That is combination of proper turbo sizing, good fuel management, VP c-16 fuel, and a reliable motor package. We have gones as fast as 7.49@195 with that set up. That was not in super street leagal format, but it was the same motor/turbo combination. That pass was on a 68 inch wheelbase bike with a multi-stage boost controller ( not single-stage like super-street). If you are really pushing the envelope such as a turbo w/ 500 hp or better (25 plus psi) or a Nitrous system with 100 hp or more shot it is time to invest in an intercooler/water injection or in the case of Nitrous a good ignition controller to manipulate some retard. Well that is enough ramblings for now, just another opinion towards the subject matter!
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chrisrok
Novice Class
Posts: 63
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posted August 17, 2009 03:32 AM
BIG P.S. to Bently. The Super street Motor that we ran (Richard Gadson) last year never suffered any failures other than a blown head gasket that I repaired at the track in Valdosta at the last race of the season. We actually went on to win that event thankfully. I actually go over that bike with a fine tooth comb before each race, but that does not include replacing bearings. I change the oil after every race, check the clutches about every five passes, pull the oil pan after every event, do a leak down test, change the plugs, and check all components. I am very serious about racing and promoting my products/services, but I don't have the financial resources to buy cranks/rods/bearing after every race. The big bore bikes such as the zx14, busa, and even the blackbirds will take some serious abuse if done correctly. The small bikes such as the 1000's require some serious finances to keep rolling if you guys are referring to a 400 plus hp bike such as Timbo's 1000 ridden by lil Nick last year. But when those little things are right, they are hell to contend with. Just expensive to maintain! I work on bikes for a living, so therefore Im not rich by no means, but I enjoy what I do and would not change a thing. The joy of racing, helping out people, meeting new friends, and the lifestyle means more to me than all the money in the world. I sincerely enjoy what I do.
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06redzx14
Pro
Posts: 1022
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posted August 17, 2009 06:11 AM
Thanks for taking the time to chime in Chris
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06 alien head, no flies, PC+hub, 16/45 44 43, air shifter, dry shot
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted August 17, 2009 06:15 AM
quote:
Thanks for taking the time to chime in Chris
+1, excellent information. 
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bigwil
Expert Class
06 zx 14 turbo stage 3
Posts: 423
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posted August 17, 2009 07:09 AM
thanks for the imfo cris and evreyone,
im hopeing to have it together by tomorow just got all 3 sizes of bearings , got the dummy shafts ,high press. valve pump cover and a new head gasket .\
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bigwil// going fast aint easy so turbo it
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iflyems
Expert Class
Posts: 233
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posted August 17, 2009 07:30 AM
Chris, I wish I would have met you 3 years ago. You could have saved me about $9000 in needless engine rebuilds.
As you could tell by my previous post, I'm still super pissed that I spent so much money for nothing. I take back what I said about the ZX14 motor. I think what this amounted to is that "we" were one of the first, to make a big horsepower ZX14 turbo motor. Therefore, "we" were learning as we went along.
What others are doing now, "we" had to learn the hard way, and I had to spend the money for the "lesson".
I had a limited amount of time and money to accomplish my life-long goal, and never even came close. So, if I snap from time to time, please understand I'm must trying to vent a little. I don't blame anyone but myself. I was too stupid to just sit back, and wait for others to figure it out. I wanted to get into the 7's, or as close to it as I could, before anyone else. What I ended up doing was pissing away over $18,000 and change, for a "package" that at best, only got me to the 8.90's. Big whoop. Hell, Smokin can do that on a fricking stock bike with his skinny a$$.
But hey, life goes on. I will continue to live vicariously through the rest of you that are succeeding, where I failed. I knew the ZX14 was capable of 7's........I just wanted it to be with me on it....what the hell was I thinking??
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NINJA12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted August 17, 2009 08:19 AM
Chris,
What do you think the safe limits are on the small street turbo like the Cycle-logic or the Muzzy Stage 1 with pump gas and C16?
Not shooting for 7's just getting the most out of my weekend warrior.
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted August 18, 2009 07:02 AM
Edited By: dubious on 18 Aug 2009 15:04
Since they all use the stock injectors, some are returnless systems ( or they return to the suction of the pump..so not complete return) and many use the rising rate regulators, the turbo themselves were not designed for massive boost pressures, or volumes efficiently thus throwing allot of heat down the inlet when they are turned up.
I know Chris would not bash anyone's product, or even say anything negative publicly, so I will throw my foot out there and simply state that those systems are good for what they are intended. Follow the manufactures recomendations is best.
5-8 psi reliably,
12psi tops due to excessive inlet temps on some them -would be my suggestion,
......................and the suggestion of others I am sure
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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gilberjj
Needs a job
Friend of Fast
Posts: 3196
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posted August 18, 2009 08:03 AM
quote:
Since they all use the stock injectors, some are returnless systems ( or they return to the suction of the pump..so not complete return) and many use the rising rate regulators, the turbo themselves were not designed for massive boost pressures, or volumes efficiently thus throwing allot of heat down the inlet when they are turned up.
I know Chris would not bash anyone's product, or even say anything negative publicly, so I will throw my foot out there and simply state that those systems are good for what they are intended. Follow the manufactures recomendations is best.
5-8 psi reliably,
12psi tops due to excessive inlet temps on some them -would be my suggestion,
......................and the suggestion of others I am sure
Just speaking purely about my knowledge of turbos in general, I would agree with lyle. Peoples perception of turbos capabilities are wrong. Turbos should not be rated by psi, but flow. How much air they are flowing, and are capable of flowing is what you need to take into account. A gt35 at 6psi will be flowing as much air as a t25 or 14b at 12psi, but the small turbos will be churning up a lot of heat due to the restrictions on the wheels, and housings.
Lyle is right, don't up those little turbos too much. Either the turbo will let go, or worse, your engine will go.
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extrapilot
Expert Class
2008 ZX14
Posts: 155
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posted August 18, 2009 01:55 PM
Edited By: extrapilot on 18 Aug 2009 21:57
quote:
drained the oil lots of sparkels
Just wondering where those sparkles came from.
I get what I would say a concerned amount in the bottom of my oil drain pan each time I change my oil. Nothing copper colored, or magnetic, more than likely aluminum.
Kawa says this is some what common with new bikes. OK I got 7K plus, 5 oil changes with no less sparkles.
Sorry for high jacking.
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'pilot
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bigwil
Expert Class
06 zx 14 turbo stage 3
Posts: 423
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posted August 18, 2009 05:16 PM
got the motor in the bike today worked all day on it it was a spaggetti mess
sounds good fired rht up
going back to the dyno in the morning whant to make shure im not running to lean
the clutch feels good ive got the new mtc 2 stage in it schniz heavey springs 3 .050 spacers
bolts on 3 arms will see how it lks it this weekend at the 2 wheelspeed
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bigwil// going fast aint easy so turbo it
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chrisrok
Novice Class
Posts: 63
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posted August 19, 2009 12:15 AM
Lyle has has stated exactly my thoughts with regards to the smaller turbos. Those kits are both great kits, but they are designed to be used just as they are marketed, and that is for a low boost street application. Some of the smaller turbos are very well capable of making 400 plus hp at higher boost levels. But how they produce that power can become very inefficient and produce extremely high inlet temps. And secondly, the power they produce at higher boost level is in such a small window that your powerband becomes similar to that of a two-stoke dirtbike motor (yz-125). Small turbos with intercoolers are a different subject. an intercooler can greatly improve efficency and do wonders with pump gas. But, finding enough room for a big one on a zx is tough, especially when you got the thing slammed for drag racing. There is a hugh misconception with regards to turbo sizing. Your high end ball-bearing turbos such as the Garrett Gt-series, Turbonetics, and Precision will spoll up at Rpms as low as 3500 even with an inlet as large as 65mm. The info that Im telling you is not some theoretical b.s.; I have hands on played with more than eight different turbo combinations on the zx14 in the last three years and I have a pretty good idea about the characteristics of them all. Those tests have all been made in a real world application on the track, street, and Dyno. The common rising rate regulator fuel set ups are ok for you basic street system under 300 hp, but beyond that it is time to move on to larger injectors and control becomes much smoother and consistant with a one to one regulator with a boost reference signal. That not to say you cant make big power with a rising rate reg. and a power commander, but you had better have a good tune-up and no how to manipulate the system. I actually made 396 rwhp with a begi reg., PC3/ w hub and 3-bar map, and a boost signal line that was loaded with restrictiors that I played with until I got the thing to give a good smooth signal and still stay under 110 psi fuel pressue at 18 psi of boost. It was good enough to go 8.17@187 mph on a 60 inch bike with a stock clutch/heavy-springs. That is not something that I would want to give to a customer because there are too many variables in a set-up like that that could lead to disaster if one mistake is made. The secondary fuel systems that I put together for the zx14 are well thought out and simple. I use a microtech ecu to control the fuel system and I have developed a map that is generally good for any application of turbo system with only the need of a possible trim adjustment to fine tune the bike. As some of you may know, Me and Barry Henson (Velocity Racing) have been friends for years and he has provided me with support and fabricated several items for me over the years. As a testimony as to how well my fuel system works, Barry gave me a zx14 at the Indy race that Velocity built a turbo kit for with my fuel system installed and asked me to set the bike up and make a pass on it. The bike was only 62 inch wheelbase, manual boost controller on a button, Mtc lock-up, and stock motor with the exception of valve springs and a thick head gasket. I made a few quick adjustments and on the first and only low-boost pass we made it went 8.30@177 mph. And that was spinning the tire out the gate because I had the pressure too high. So with a little dail in time, you know what that thing will do. Some of the guys on this site were actually there taking pictures at that race and witnessed that, I know. As Lyle stated, I will never down anyone products, because Im not some high authority, just a guy that has spent a lot of time with the ZX14 and got some things working well. If I have the time I am always open to share help and surport if I can. I have no room for big egos in my life. I am simply greatful to God above that I have the opportunity to do what I love (racing, building bikes) for a living. If anyone would like to see pictures of those bikes/turbos, shoot me an email at chrisjones352@bellsouth.net. I will send you photos, Im no good at site posting. That posting pictures thread for dummies still has not done me any good. Sincerely, Chris Jones.
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zx14turbo
Novice Class
truth....thats all i ask
Posts: 36
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posted August 19, 2009 02:33 AM
chris, great talking to you this week. the info here is priceless. you will have my bike after the race in atco. good luck there, hope to see you push the 14's limits in super street.
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zx14turbo
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MJ
Zone Head
Posts: 560
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posted August 19, 2009 11:57 PM
Thanks a ton Chris for sharing you're knowledge with your fellow bikers...big  to you
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