blackbullet76
Pro
Posts: 1134
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posted June 03, 2009 04:02 PM
question about tensioner
Just got my APE tensioner in the mail. Got a question. How are you guys turning the engine over to adjust it? Are yall taking out the plug and turning it at the crank? Is there a way to do it by spinning it over with the starter? I don't remember doing this on my 01 zx6r.
____________
2007 ZX-14 black
Brocks s-meg exhaust
PCIII w/track map
BMC race filter
Flies removed
16 tooth front sprocket
Speedohealer
APE cam chain tensioner
Vortex rearsets
   
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pissear
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Professional Cockis Slap Peer
Posts: 309
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posted June 03, 2009 07:52 PM
Look at your drive chain. Set it gear. I don't care which way you turn for the chain taught theory... Just move it either way. Do you see how tight one rung is and the other is slack?
When you set the tensioner, do not move the engine with the starter motor. You are going to set the static like the rear wheel. So, load the front chain two ways. Either remove the right side cover and turn the crank [as you look at it] at a clockwise direction.
Now you have the rear tensioner slipper ready to load with the APE. Do not unload the crank bolt, but keep it taught. The cam may be on a lobe that will send the crank backwards and load the rear chain, you light the bike up and she is noisy.
So, keep that crank under load, clockwise. Now you kiss the tensioner with the stopper. Put your finger in the hole so you can push on the slipper and see there is not much you can move that anymore than necessary. Now you can install the tensioner and know how much load you need to make on the tensioner is hardly touch it, but make sure there is no gap in between the tensioner stopper and slipper. This should be the static set and now light the bike up and hear the noise or no noise with the proper pressure.
____________
way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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davej
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted June 03, 2009 08:12 PM
I just cranked the engine over to the low spot without starting. Then backed off 1/4 turn.
____________
Triumph guy
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blackbullet76
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posted June 03, 2009 10:04 PM
 Edited By: blackbullet76 on 4 Jun 2009 06:11
quote:
I just cranked the engine over to the low spot without starting. Then backed off 1/4 turn
I did this procedure and now my 14 is quiet (except for the Brocks pipe, haha) I love it  Just to be sure I had it right, I fired it up and backed off the adjusting bolt a hair and it got a little noisy so I turned it back in. If it ain't raining tomorrow morning, I'm gonna take it for a spin and see how she sounds while riding. It used to be a little noisy at low to mid rpm's. Thanks guys!
____________
2007 ZX-14 black
Brocks s-meg exhaust
PCIII w/track map
BMC race filter
Flies removed
16 tooth front sprocket
Speedohealer
APE cam chain tensioner
Vortex rearsets
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zxbob
Pro
Posts: 1692
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posted June 04, 2009 03:33 AM
Here is the easiest way I can tell you ..... or anyone/
1.Remove the timing cover and set the motor to 1 & 4 (spinning the way the motor turns)
2. Then turn the motor "backwards" slightly (maybe 20* or so) this loads the front of the chain.
3. Remove the factory tensioner.
4. Get a popcycle stick (or simular) and put in in the removed tensioner hole untill you feel it
touch againt the chain guide, mark the stick at the mating surface.
5. Use the mark on the popcycle stick to set the depth of the APE tensioner and lock it.
6. Now install the tensioner.
7. Reinstall the timing cover and start her up.
That how i've done all mine in the past and never have had any problems.
Bob
____________
Good parts aint cheap and cheap parts aint good !
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted June 04, 2009 03:46 AM
quote:
Here is the easiest way I can tell you ..... or anyone/
1.Remove the timing cover and set the motor to 1 & 4 (spinning the way the motor turns)
2. Then turn the motor "backwards" slightly (maybe 20* or so) this loads the front of the chain.
3. Remove the factory tensioner.
4. Get a popcycle stick (or simular) and put in in the removed tensioner hole untill you feel it
touch againt the chain guide, mark the stick at the mating surface.
5. Use the mark on the popcycle stick to set the depth of the APE tensioner and lock it.
6. Now install the tensioner.
7. Reinstall the timing cover and start her up.
That how i've done all mine in the past and never have had any problems.
Bob
Instead of removing the side cover.....
Bob, could the same be done with the rear wheel, as hub suggested? Could turning the wheel backwards slightly, load the front of the chain and then put in the tensioner?
The service manual doens't mention any special procedure I think.
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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zxbob
Pro
Posts: 1692
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posted June 04, 2009 03:57 AM
Yes !
Bob
____________
Good parts aint cheap and cheap parts aint good !
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blackbullet76
Pro
Posts: 1134
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posted June 04, 2009 09:08 AM
Just went for a ride. I couldn't believe my ears when my 14 got warmed up and idled back down, no more knocking sound! Since my first oil change, I've had a variable knocking sound at idle. Alot of people on here had it too so I didn't worry too much about it, just kept on riding. Eventually it turned into slight knocking at idle and rattling at low to mid rpm when riding. All of that is gone!!! Has anyone else experienced this? I haven't read on here where a manual cam chain tensioner has cured the dreaded idle knock. But I'm happy to say I have a restored love for my baby! Plus it runs better too, power is better all through the rpm's. Best money I ever spent :-) They should have put these on from the factory.
____________
2007 ZX-14 black
Brocks s-meg exhaust
PCIII w/track map
BMC race filter
Flies removed
16 tooth front sprocket
Speedohealer
APE cam chain tensioner
Vortex rearsets
|
zxbob
Pro
Posts: 1692
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posted June 04, 2009 09:43 AM
Good to hear !!
Bob
____________
Good parts aint cheap and cheap parts aint good !
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted June 04, 2009 09:53 AM
quote:
Good to hear !!
Bob
Like I have said before, I have the Concours tensioner.....sitting on the table! I am hesitant to install it because the manual says you need to hit the plunger 'retaining' clip with a long screwdriver, via the valve cover! I am not removing that damn thing!
However, there is an inspection hole on the side of the block. Unfortunately, it's about 1/4" off from the end of the tensioner where the retaining clip is. I might be able to bend a big paperclip in such a manner to reach in and yank on the little clip.
But I do wonder, will this solve the problem or do I get the APE unit? (money's tight!)
Any thoughts guys?
Thanks
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted June 04, 2009 10:32 AM
Let me add, I heard an 09 start up yesterday....same rattle at start up (600miles/1000kms on it) but very quiet at idle...and smoother running at idle than my bike!!
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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BIGZXDADDY
Expert Class
Posts: 270
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posted June 04, 2009 11:44 AM
quote:
quote:
Good to hear !!
Bob
Like I have said before, I have the Concours tensioner.....sitting on the table! I am hesitant to install it because the manual says you need to hit the plunger 'retaining' clip with a long screwdriver, via the valve cover! I am not removing that damn thing!
However, there is an inspection hole on the side of the block. Unfortunately, it's about 1/4" off from the end of the tensioner where the retaining clip is. I might be able to bend a big paperclip in such a manner to reach in and yank on the little clip.
But I do wonder, will this solve the problem or do I get the APE unit? (money's tight!)
Any thoughts guys?
Thanks
the tensioner can be released thru the inspection hole. push the tensioner all the way in the hole then pull it back just far enough to push the clip. when it pops push it all the way in making sure it goes flush to the block and install the bolts while holding it in place. turn it over once by hand before starting. it's pretty easy to do
____________
"never drive faster than you can see, besides it's all in the reflexes"
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted June 04, 2009 11:59 AM
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will do right after work and report back!!
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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davej
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted June 04, 2009 06:09 PM
Why did my 14 go from 38 avg to 41.3 after the manual install? 500 miles on manual, love it. I don't ride like a squid but the mileage did go up. That's off the display which is the biggest optimist on earth. Subtract 6%.
____________
Triumph guy
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted June 04, 2009 06:47 PM
Well, we have a problem if you have an 06 or 07 ZX14!!!!!!
There is NO inspection port at the tensioner!! Just a spot where Kawi planned to put one in the future!
So I drove over to the local shop and bought the APE unit.
Slid out the old tensioner and slid in the APE piece. Turned it finger tight, then jerked the rear tire forward in gear and was able to tighten the APE some more.
Then I fired her up, and no more rattle!!!
I then rode over to the old empty parking lot down the street so I could fine tune the APE.
What I found was that you could tighten another turn in, and maybe here some noise, and then I could loosen and then here clearly the light ticking of the cam chain. It was at that point that I tightened a little until the light ticking was gone and snugged the lock nut.
Been out riding for the last 1.5 hrs. Let me tell you, the bike drives smoother and the idle is not so lopey. This is not in my head!! This is real!!
When you pull up at the lights, the motor is not KNOCKING!!!
I will post up pics of the ZX14 tensioner and the new Concours piece that I have here tomorrow night.
My Stock piece fully extended itself as I removed it. When I plunger it in, oil leaks out of the plunger. Like it's not sealing?
Seeing as the stock unit fully extended upon removal, I would suspect that trying to install a stock type unit without removing the valve cover to do the service manual procedure, would not work as BIGZXDADDY explained. However, seeing as I don't have the inspection port, I couldn't know for sure! I will get a better idea tomorrow when I compare the two stock units.
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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davej
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted June 04, 2009 08:27 PM
Edited By: davej on 5 Jun 2009 04:40
It will fully extend upon removal, because that is what is was designed to do. extend to the catches and not reverse. You pull it out and it will go to it's design limit. It thinks your cam chain has stretched that far. No worries. The Harley V-rod is completely oil tensioned, no gathering catch. If you back it off a trailer in gear it will jump with lots of miles. Not a happy ending. And the 14 unattended will do the same but for different reasons. Like full throttle and instant shut down, rattle like no tomorrow.
____________
Triumph guy
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blackbullet76
Pro
Posts: 1134
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posted June 04, 2009 10:51 PM
quote:
Been out riding for the last 1.5 hrs. Let me tell you, the bike drives smoother and the idle is not so lopey. This is not in my head!! This is real!!
When you pull up at the lights, the motor is not KNOCKING!!!
I experienced the same thing! Smoother running, no more knocking. Have you tried full throttle acceleration? Mine has more power now, no lie! I guess it's where the cam timing is better or something. I know it's not in my head, because I wasn't told it would give more power or anything before I test rode it. I just went out and rode it to see if it would rattle or anything and boy was I surprised! I red-lined the gears in 3rd, 4th and 5th sooner than normal on my favorite straight stretch close to my house. I knew then it ran better. Why on earth Kawi put the hydraulic piece in there is beyond my knowledge. Glad I'm not the only one seeing the bonus features of installing the manual tensioner.
____________
2007 ZX-14 black
Brocks s-meg exhaust
PCIII w/track map
BMC race filter
Flies removed
16 tooth front sprocket
Speedohealer
APE cam chain tensioner
Vortex rearsets
|
87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
|
posted June 05, 2009 03:28 AM
Edited By: 87gtNOS on 5 Jun 2009 11:42
You better believe it blackbullet76!!!
Like I say, I no longer have the KNOCK.
BUT I do have some slight cam chain tick. Very very light tick, at 4000 rpm in 2nd gear I noticed slight tick. Again, it's very very light. I can live with that!
Even at the dealer (wife works there) on Tuesday, the service dude is riding a new 09 orange ZX14 and we compared the rattle of the two bikes. The 09 did the startup rattle, but was silent at idle and even as you brought it up to 2500 rpm. My bike knock and carried on as you brought it up to 2500!!
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
|
pissear
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Professional Cockis Slap Peer
Posts: 309
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posted June 05, 2009 06:20 AM
Edited By: pissear on 5 Jun 2009 14:24
I changed the oil and sunk the t-body at the same time. I just lit the bike up cold and not one knock of the tensioner.
You can watch the walk and now I said how to set the taught on one side so you can see the drive chain is having the same tight side on the pull of the rear wheel.
I loopholed a step so as to use 6th gear on a dead engine. I load the crank as I see the chain loaded the same way as UB but do not back up any!
NO WAY do I unload the chain if notice that UB said to use TDC and now what that means is that the valve springs will not force the crank to roll backwards (fighting that cam ramp) is what most static tensioners are adjusted to.
Even the automatic tensioner of the 14 does not roll back to make a chain setting, nor does it state in the book to move the hyvo backward to adjust the tensioner.
I follow the most practical theory that makes the most sense is to back up what the stock tensioner would do in a scenario like this is to keep that crank chain loaded on the drive side the way the engine turns.
I back off on the chain. I have cams that float or lag on the throttle lift. Do I want to add more to the cam wave of a chain to cam to cam to crank? My TDC or any position means tight drive side is the timing is always TDC once you move the crank about 65 times or when the timing marks finally line up... Give or take a few turns.
____________
way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
|
blackbullet76
Pro
Posts: 1134
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posted June 05, 2009 07:07 AM
quote:
My bike knock and carried on as you brought it up to 2500!!
Oh, mine did too. I think it did it higher in the rpm's though. It did it real bad when decelerating to slow down. Every time I would downshift, it would rattle and knock. Sometimes when starting it up cold, the start-up rattle would carry on for a while. I would have to cut it off and start it back up again to get it to go away. Very frustrating, that's why I ordered the APE. I'm so glad I did, just wish I would have done it sooner. The weather is going to nice all weekend here, so you know what I'll be doing!!! :-)
____________
2007 ZX-14 black
Brocks s-meg exhaust
PCIII w/track map
BMC race filter
Flies removed
16 tooth front sprocket
Speedohealer
APE cam chain tensioner
Vortex rearsets
|
BIGZXDADDY
Expert Class
Posts: 270
|
posted June 05, 2009 02:23 PM
quote:
Well, we have a problem if you have an 06 or 07 ZX14!!!!!!
There is NO inspection port at the tensioner!! Just a spot where Kawi planned to put one in the future!
So I drove over to the local shop and bought the APE unit.
Slid out the old tensioner and slid in the APE piece. Turned it finger tight, then jerked the rear tire forward in gear and was able to tighten the APE some more.
Then I fired her up, and no more rattle!!!
I then rode over to the old empty parking lot down the street so I could fine tune the APE.
What I found was that you could tighten another turn in, and maybe here some noise, and then I could loosen and then here clearly the light ticking of the cam chain. It was at that point that I tightened a little until the light ticking was gone and snugged the lock nut.
Been out riding for the last 1.5 hrs. Let me tell you, the bike drives smoother and the idle is not so lopey. This is not in my head!! This is real!!
When you pull up at the lights, the motor is not KNOCKING!!!
I will post up pics of the ZX14 tensioner and the new Concours piece that I have here tomorrow night.
My Stock piece fully extended itself as I removed it. When I plunger it in, oil leaks out of the plunger. Like it's not sealing?
Seeing as the stock unit fully extended upon removal, I would suspect that trying to install a stock type unit without removing the valve cover to do the service manual procedure, would not work as BIGZXDADDY explained. However, seeing as I don't have the inspection port, I couldn't know for sure! I will get a better idea tomorrow when I compare the two stock units.
my bike is a 06 and has the port and a buddy with a 07 has it. are the canadian engines different? i,ve installed tensioners on both bikes as i described. mine during valve adjustment, his due to tensioner failure. it does work and is a lot easier than going at it from the top(providing you have an inspection port). to reuse the stock unit it has to be collapsed and the retaining clip engaged as described in the manuel. thats the whole point in having to release it after installation. oil should not leak from the plunger when compressed but be forced out the port that lines up with the oil galley in the block. all in all it sounds like the manuel tensioner is the best way to go
____________
"never drive faster than you can see, besides it's all in the reflexes"
|
87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted June 05, 2009 05:00 PM
LOL!! Yeah, must be my CDN ZX14!!!!!
Like you say, my stock tensioner squirts oil from the plunger, not the oil port!!
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
|
davej
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted June 05, 2009 05:27 PM
Going to put another 250 miles this Saturday on the MDA run from SLC to Wendover, Nev. That will give the 14 over 750 miles on the APE. So far I'm kicking myself for not doing this sooner. New motorcycle and yes the power seems stronger, smoother and earlier. Will put it back on the dyno and remap so it won't be wishful thinking.
____________
Triumph guy
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davej
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted June 06, 2009 08:06 PM
750 miles on the APE. Checked the adj. no change.
____________
Triumph guy
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted June 07, 2009 04:53 AM
I don't think davej that it will need any adjustment for quite some time. It would only need adjusting on a new bike!!
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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