dattaway2
Novice Class
Ninja's rule
Posts: 51
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posted June 01, 2009 06:52 AM
 Edited By: dattaway2 on 1 Jun 2009 14:58
How to remove flies completely without the FI ERROR (howto pics)
I didn't see a tutorial on how to remove that dead secondary shaft in the throttle bodies. Removing the plates is good, but the shaft is not as the ECU expects the servo to actuate the throttle position sensor.....a nice constant flashing error display will be the result. This mod removes the shaft, plugs the holes, and restores ECU operation by fitting the TPS directly to the servo with a modified shaft.
That's it. And it works! The only disadvantage is lack of a computer assisted high idle for cold weather starts.
I took pictures along the way:
This is after I removed the rod and plugged the holes with epoxy. You'll have to drop the engine to get fair access to the bodies, unbolt the two sections and slide the rod out. Discard the misc. hardware.
Here's how I checked to see what the ECU was looking for. Preloading the TPS on the servo shaft was all it needed. Fine, now let's see how to rig this up...
Here's what we have to work with. We will need to shorten the shaft...
A dremel tool works nicely to shorten and create a new flat keyway...
The shaft and pin slides neatly into the servo....
See how the TPS fits neatly into the servo? How convenient!
Ready for assembly...
sides of the shaft can be epoxied so it won't fall out of the servo
Finished installation. Be sure to test and retest the preloaded position before applying epoxy.
Testing.
   
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knydecker
Expert Class
Uber-BigPimpin
Posts: 230
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posted June 01, 2009 07:17 AM
I have never heard of an "F1" error when removing the Flies. Mine have been removed for some time now with no problems and I dont plan on doing 'surgury" on my bike.
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This was dictated... but not read!
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted June 01, 2009 07:22 AM
Removing the shaft is in addition to fly removal. If you don't care about removing the shaft, then I suggest leaving it in. I'm definitely going to look into this mod more.
Thanks for posting, dattaway!!
Shane
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dattaway2
Novice Class
Ninja's rule
Posts: 51
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posted June 01, 2009 08:33 AM
quote:
I have never heard of an "F1" error when removing the Flies. Mine have been removed for some time now with no problems and I dont plan on doing 'surgury" on my bike.
Yes. The remaining shaft looked rather large in the airstream. That's what this is all about. Remove it and the computer isn't happy unless the TPI is connected to the servo. That's what I did.
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Compton
Zone Head
Posts: 969
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posted June 01, 2009 09:07 AM
very nice, my friend did this to his 10 also. boosted guys would like this as it would help with leaks.
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08 Busa, just a little longer and louder and lower than the 14
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THEMADKAW
Expert Class
Posts: 211
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posted June 01, 2009 02:54 PM
very interesting! that must clean up the airflow a little bit more. i would like to see some power #s!!!
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dubious
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Needs more time to ride!
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posted June 01, 2009 06:40 PM
Good work!
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destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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MJ
Zone Head
Posts: 560
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posted June 02, 2009 02:23 AM
Thanks for sharing the info datt. Definately interesting to read and quite ingenious  I have to say though that seems like a lot of work to just remove the shaft. Fun if you have time to kill and like to wrench, but I doubt there will be any noticeable gains to speak of.
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dattaway2
Novice Class
Ninja's rule
Posts: 51
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posted June 02, 2009 07:25 AM
Well I lied about the FI error. When the engine starts up cold, it idles too low. No problem if you just take off and ride. But if you let the cold engine sit and warm up, the ECU wants to push the idle up to at least 1,000 rpm. If it idles too low for a minute, it will see the servo is maxed out and assume something is wrong with the engine. Then it will throw a code. Turning off for a few seconds while the servo resets and starting back up and its normal operation.
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Shane661
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posted June 02, 2009 07:32 AM
So, if you set the idle up to 1300 cold, will it still throw the code?
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dattaway2
Novice Class
Ninja's rule
Posts: 51
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posted June 02, 2009 07:37 AM
If the idle is too high or too low when the engine temperature is low, the code comes up. Doesn't seem to happen on a warmed up engine.
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted June 02, 2009 10:44 AM
That's a really interesting post dattaway2.
The extra area in the intake must be around 15-20% and the cleaned up airflow has to be worth having. My only reservation is that it's a bit permanent, not so easy to return to standard at trade-in time but for the serious tuners it's got to be worth it..
____________
Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted June 02, 2009 11:05 AM
When the ecu throws a code, what exactly does it do? Does it then change to a "limp home" running mode?
When I threw a code at Maxton, the speed limiter came in and held me to 178 mph (I was +1 gearing)..
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WindSwordNinja
Expert Class
Posts: 203
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posted June 02, 2009 01:50 PM
This would be great with 46mm throttle bodies like NorthernKaw mentions on his thread!
P.S. what happened to the pictures?
____________
2014 ZX14 Black and Green
2008 ZX14 Black and Red SE
1986 ZX1000R Black
"Faster, faster! Faster would be better!" (Serenity)
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dattaway2
Novice Class
Ninja's rule
Posts: 51
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posted June 02, 2009 02:23 PM
I didn't notice a limp mode when the error came up, but I don't have a good place to test around here. But that code sure came up a lot when the engine wasn't up to temperature. And now its raining... 
pictures back up...webserver on my laptop...overheated and the wifi shut down...
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Shane661
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Posts: 11494
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posted June 02, 2009 03:28 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 2 Jun 2009 23:28
I don't know if the reason the code is being thown is due to the lower idle. When you remove the plates it does not throw a code. Without plates, my fast idle still works.
Maybe I am missing something? If so, sorry...I'm just tired...
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FastestBusaAround
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posted June 02, 2009 03:53 PM
I was just thinking the same thing - all you're doing is moving the TPS to the other end of the servo on the same (but shortened) shaft. Wait a sec, isn't the TPS originally tied to the primary throttle plates? Am I MISSING something now? Why would it be on the secondary plates? Those are controlled by the ECU and not the rider...
IF OTOH, it was on the secondary shaft, he should not be throwing a code...as nothing would have changed as far as the ECU thinks.
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FYYFF!!!
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Port_Angeles_NINJA
Expert Class
Posts: 388
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posted June 02, 2009 04:18 PM
FBA there is a TPS on the main throttle plates and one on the secondaries.
dattaway what code are you getting?
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Blue 07' ZX14
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FastestBusaAround
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posted June 02, 2009 05:19 PM
Edited By: FastestBusaAround on 3 Jun 2009 01:35
So if that's the case...why is he throwing a code and why isn't his high idle working? Basically, all he's doing is moving the TPS closer to the servo in the exact same line...
So here's a thought...the TPS is no longer at the same degree/angle as it was before he moved it. It only has to be off 1-2 degrees in either direction for the ECU to code. Maybe that's why his high idle isn't working? If I'm right, it would explain the high idle problem.
Dattaway, did you check that carefully before you moved it? How did you test the "preloaded position" as you put it? Did you measure the voltage with the throttle at rest and then make sure you had the exact same voltage after you put it in position? Failing that, the service manual gives you the voltage you need at rest and at open I believe. You didn't mention anything about that, so I'm assuming you didn't check it that way. If not, it's a simple matter of repositioning the sensor to get the correct voltage. Just have to break the epoxy weld. 
I'll check that now and post up.
EDIT - I checked the output voltage from the TPS - and this is what you're looking for:
.62 VDC at idle to 4.14 VDC at full open measured between the BL/W and the BR/ BK wires. Now that's for the Sub TPS...so, if your output voltage is lower or higher (I suspect higher) than .62 Volts at rest, you have to get it back down to .62. If you're showing higher, the ECU thinks the throttle is open, when in fact it's not. It will give you incorrect mixture and throw a code, because the RPM's/Speed sensor tell it that the bike's at idle, or somewhere close, while the TPS says it's revving. I'm guessing you're well over 1 Volt right now as it sits. Also - does anyone know if the brass adjuster slot on the TPS needs to be grounded? It was while it was mounted on the TB intake shaft, but I'm not sure if it's a requirement for the TPS to operate or not. That again would be an easy fix, but I'd start with the voltage measurement 1st.
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FYYFF!!!
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dattaway2
Novice Class
Ninja's rule
Posts: 51
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posted June 03, 2009 05:24 AM
Good information! I'll have to check to see what's happening when I get time after work this week. Making changes to what I have done with the epoxy isn't a problem.
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted June 03, 2009 06:37 AM
all i need now is someone how can bore the throttle plates to 46mm. If i remember correctly. northernkaw stated he gained 4hp but need the shaft moved because it was interupting the flow. This could actually be a good mod especially if you got the head ported and polished with the degreed cams
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted June 03, 2009 06:48 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 3 Jun 2009 14:51
Also, the throttle bodies are easily removed if the bodywork is pulled. No need to drop the motor down:
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=40269&pagenumber=3
Once the bodywork is pulled you can remove them within about 10 minutes. I pulled them and reinstalled them within an hour....
Shane
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Port_Angeles_NINJA
Expert Class
Posts: 388
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posted June 03, 2009 08:09 AM
I don't think the brass slot on the subthrottle sensor needs to be grounded. It has 3 wires connected to it, and the only connections needed would be
1) ground
2) supply voltage
3) wiper (the output voltage)
Also, if you measure the output voltage between BL/W and BR/BK one of those 2 wires has to be the ground reference.
____________
Red/Black 85' GPZ900
Blue 07' ZX14
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Obba
Expert Class
Posts: 455
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posted June 03, 2009 03:33 PM
I think FBA has it right.
Not stating the bleedin obvious, but aren't TPS really Variable Resistors?
Most that i know of, can be rotated (the housing), slightly so as to adjust the voltage as FBA is quoting.
But from the pics it looks like to me as though there is no room for rotating.
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NYC ZX-14
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Manager Star Toyota Bayside,NY
Posts: 214
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posted June 03, 2009 04:59 PM
Edited By: NYC ZX-14 on 4 Jun 2009 00:59
quote:
That's a really interesting post dattaway2.
The extra area in the intake must be around 15-20% and the cleaned up airflow has to be worth having. My only reservation is that it's a bit permanent, not so easy to return to standard at trade-in time but for the serious tuners it's got to be worth it..
But isn't the same "15-20%" intake reduction STILL present by the same area taken up by the primary flies and their accompanying shaft? I can't see any real benefit other than the "Hey look what I did." Cool factor.
____________
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http://www.goldiesplating.com
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