FastestBusaAround
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posted June 10, 2009 05:01 PM
That may be PART of the whole mapping that they did...I could actually check on my 08, but I'm too fuckin' lazy to go in there and open everything to check. I'd guess someone here has an 08 /09 service manual and could check. The mapping was changed as well to allow for more fuel and getting the plates opening sooner. There's obviously more to the trick than a simple voltage increase, but you could very well be on the money with your theory.
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FastestBusaAround
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posted June 10, 2009 05:12 PM
quote:
The voltage is not really a specification, its more for troubleshooting. No matter how you twist the TPS, the servo will track that voltage....but the TPS hits the limits. I can adjust it to each end and still be on 0.62 or 1.62 depending on the bike and there will be no code...until I go somewhere and the secondary throttle wants to move. It will bang the limit and it won't get the new voltage it wants.
Someone else may explain it better than I can.
No, the ECU is expecting the voltage specified. The fact that you can set it to either or any voltage doesn't negate that fact. There are mapping/hi idle issues when set to the wrong voltage, as you already know. It is quite possible that your 08 is designed with a different spec on the output voltage, but the only way the ECU can see where the throttle position is, is by reading the output voltage of the TPS and it doesn't recalibrate itself on the fly, or any way at all, so as I said, it has to be a specific voltage at rest...and maybe that is or isn't the 1.62 you've set it to...I don't have a clue. I do know quite well how a TPS system works -- and it has to follow spec, or there will be other issues; nothing drastic or damaging on the ZX14, but it still needs to be in spec.
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FYYFF!!!
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87gtNOS
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posted June 10, 2009 06:21 PM
More voltage at idle is not going to open the flies quicker!!!
There is no need for Kawi to change those specs. The opening of the flies sooner on the 08 is simply a result of different programing of the ECU telling the ACTUATOR to move sooner.
As long as the Original Poster follows the manual's order of setting the secondary flies up, there should be no issues.
-Verify the INPUT voltage to the sec. TPS.
-measure the OUTPUT voltage, adjust to spec.
-the sec. TPS is then activated by the actuator.
-the Actuator must then need 2 'stops'. One for idle, one for WOT.
-this 'travel' or 'degrees' would need to be followed as the stock flies would travel.
-and that then leads me to want to understand how the actuator finds the idle stop and WOT stop when there are NO flies?! Only the original poster would know, he has it all apart!!!
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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dubious
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posted June 10, 2009 08:00 PM
The 2nd shaft has a linkage on the other end, which slightly opens the primaries for high speed idle. When the shaft is removed the stepper and 2nd TPS can be arranged to work in unison, but the primary TPS is not seeing what the ECU wants for high speed idle....
I am quite sure the primary TPS, 2nd TPS and stepper are all working together, and without the secondary opening the primary slightly for high speed idle, its not happy.
Thats my take on it anyway....
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Obba
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posted June 10, 2009 10:07 PM
Ok.
FBA is correct (AFAIK), that the ECU looks at the TPS voltage. It doesn't give a shit what the TPS voltage is, but 'whatever' the ECU looks after will be related/affected.
Dattaway2. No, FBA and I aren't trying to be funny - we are trying to help by giving advice as best we can.
Some other owner of an 08 should find out what their voltage of the TPS is listed at.
Now Dubious has fucked it all  by now telling us that there are two TPS's!!!
Look. It's pretty simple here. You set the TPS voltage to what the user manual states it should be. If it's 1.62v then great. FBA only mentioned what his TPS voltage was, albeit on his 06.
I think you should be sending a case of beer to FBA as a gift for him to open up his 08
Anyway, if it's working fine, then you did a very nice first time mod - and you took the risk to do it as well.
I think this mod doubled up with the 46mm throttle body mod would attract a few watchers. People like Shane might be looking in
BTW: Knock knock. "Whos there"?, "Doctor", "Doctor Who" ---- Ha ha ha ha, get it? LOL!!!!!
Now thats fuck'n funny...
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dubious
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posted June 10, 2009 11:08 PM
 Edited By: dubious on 11 Jun 2009 07:09
There is 2 TPS!
go look at your bike!
I had the TB;s on the bench and played with them.
The servo rotates the entire shaft, which has a am on the opposite end the 2ndary TPS.
The secondary cam picks up the primary cam and rotates it about 10% open for high idle.
I said earlier that there are 2 TPS and the secondary opens the primary for cold idle...about 3 days ago...i put that on here.
I could care less about cold idle, as long as no codes are thrown when its warm.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted June 11, 2009 06:12 AM
Ahh, Lyle you hit the nail on the head!! The ACTUATOR steps up the PRIMARYS also! Makes sense.
I think the ultimate solution is to machine down the secondary shaft to half the thickness, or give it a taper for when it's in the WOT position.
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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dattaway2
Novice Class
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Posts: 51
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posted June 11, 2009 07:02 AM
mwhahahahaha!
If anyone sets this by voltage alone, they are going to be in for big surprise!
♫♬♪♪♫♫♬♪♪♫♫♬♪♪♫♫♬♪♪♫........
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Port_Angeles_NINJA
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Posts: 388
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posted June 11, 2009 07:36 AM
quote:
More voltage at idle is not going to open the flies quicker!!!
There is no need for Kawi to change those specs. The opening of the flies sooner on the 08 is simply a result of different programing of the ECU telling the ACTUATOR to move sooner.
As long as the Original Poster follows the manual's order of setting the secondary flies up, there should be no issues.
-Verify the INPUT voltage to the sec. TPS.
-measure the OUTPUT voltage, adjust to spec.
-the sec. TPS is then activated by the actuator.
-the Actuator must then need 2 'stops'. One for idle, one for WOT.
-this 'travel' or 'degrees' would need to be followed as the stock flies would travel.
-and that then leads me to want to understand how the actuator finds the idle stop and WOT stop when there are NO flies?! Only the original poster would know, he has it all apart!!!
I guess maybe i am not speaking english or something. I understand perfectly well how the ECU, stepper motor, and subthrottle sensor (TPS as people have been calling it) work together to manipulate the secondaries. Of course more voltage from the TPS does not CAUSE the secondaries to be more open at idle. It is a RESULT of the secondaries being more open at idle. If kawasaki remapped the goddamn opening of the secondaries on the 08 bike, the voltage from the TPS at idle WILL be different. It will be different because the ECU is going to move the actuator to a different position. I don't understand why this is so confusing.
You keep posting information that reveals that you don't actually understand how this system works. And you keep correcting me, when i actually do understand how it works. You want to know how it finds the "Stops" when there are NO flies. What the hell difference do you think it makes whether there is a long shaft with throttle plates between the actuator and the sensor, or a short shaft with no plates? They are still connected by a shaft, the sesor is still being moved directly by the actuator. The ONLY thing that is an issue is that they are put together in such a way that the actuator can physically move the sensor from one extreme to the other, and it can move freely. Once that is done the ECU will move the actuator back and forth until it sees the voltage reading it is seeking for the particular situation at the time.
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Red/Black 85' GPZ900
Blue 07' ZX14
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dattaway2
Novice Class
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Posts: 51
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posted June 11, 2009 08:03 AM
Voltage causes the flies to open. Its a typical closed loop servo/sensor circuit.
But what do I know I only have a BSEE degree...
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
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posted June 11, 2009 08:16 AM
NO PROBLEM PORT ANGELES.... again....YOU SET THE TPS VOLTAGE WITH THE KEY ON-ENGINE OFF, THE SEC FLIES ARE 100% CLOSED, YOU SHOULD HAVE 0.62V THEN, RIGHT?
The flies aren't open EXTRA at idle!!! Kawi has simply 'accellerated' the process of opening the flies on the 08+.
The sec TPS is not controlling the flies....it is sending the position to the ECU, the ECU then calculates what is going on.
So to the ECU, 0.62V is STILL CLOSED FLIES. 4.75V or so, is STILL WOT and everything in between is relative.
I guess I see it one way, you guys can see yours!
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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Port_Angeles_NINJA
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posted June 11, 2009 09:14 AM
"NO PROBLEM PORT ANGELES.... again....YOU SET THE TPS VOLTAGE WITH THE KEY ON-ENGINE OFF, THE SEC FLIES ARE 100% CLOSED, YOU SHOULD HAVE 0.62V THEN, RIGHT?"
FOR A 2006 OR 2007 ZX14, YES.
Do you actually know what kawi changed in the mapping of the flies for the 2008, or just pulling that out of your ass?
Why wouldn't they be more opened at idle?
I was not trying to piss anyone off, just clear up some misconceptions. That is apparently futile so i won't do it anymore. OK one more time:
"Voltage causes the flies to open. Its a typical closed loop servo/sensor circuit"
you do realize that the subthrottle actuator is a 4 wire stepper motor, and not controlled by an analog voltage like a servo motor controller would be? I assume you do since you have BSEE degree. However your statement seems to imply that you think the ECU is outputting an analog voltage to the actuator to control it's movement. It's not. Congratulations on your BSEE by the way, very impressive.
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Red/Black 85' GPZ900
Blue 07' ZX14
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87gtNOS
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posted June 11, 2009 09:46 AM
Sorry Port, I mean no disrespect, etc...
Again, I still see it my way, you see it your way.
BTW, I don't have a BSEE, no have I ever professed to.
I am simply saying I would think TPS voltages would remain the same for all years.
And therefore, idle = 0.62v no matter what when the flies are CLOSED and key on-eng off!!!
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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87gtNOS
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posted June 11, 2009 10:41 AM
Edited By: 87gtNOS on 11 Jun 2009 19:00
My wife works at the dealer....so when I took her some lunch, I grabbed the 08 manual...
specs are the same.
I snapped a pic of the page (the NEXT page has the measuring of the sensor!) with the measurement at the ECU (as my wife was bitching about the tomato on her burger) , hence telling us what connectors to attach to with the Kawi tool, however, that voltage test is there for you to test to make sure you don't have a drop between the sensor and the ECU in the wiring.....
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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Obba
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posted June 11, 2009 02:45 PM
Well done 87gtNOS. I think you cleared that up pretty good. Come to think of it, did Dattaway2 ever mention he read his manual?
Just as FBA said!
Dattaway2. Congrats on having the only ZX14 with 1.62volts on the TPS in the world :0
But as they say - If it works for you then brilliant. I'd be sending a letter to Kawasaki HQ and telling them to reprint the manuals or send Errata sheets out, notifying all owners that 0.62v may be incorrect and that they should get down to the dealers to have them upped to your spec.
Shit, we could be talking a recall here,,,, drum roll,,,
BTW. if you have any trouble with Fuel mixtures (I'd be betting a dollar or two you're running rich), you know where NOT to look.
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87gtNOS
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posted June 11, 2009 03:04 PM
Guys, I am not trying to cause any pissing matches...I think the whole idea of this thread is awesome. Somehow though, we need to get this to work!!
Here is the next page in the 08 manual that I MEANT TO TAKE A PIC OF!!!!!!
As a side note, I grabbed the 08 CONCOURS manual and it shows the same specs also.
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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pissear
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posted June 11, 2009 03:05 PM
I can see it from here. It says. 0.62 to 4.14v w/key fob on.
If dattaway has 1.62v.....Ear is a, Drum Roll....... We have a winner within spec. No need to head for the dealer except wit ha fresh slice of 2 may toe. Well, you say 2 mod dough, I say two MOToe.... Lettuce call the whole thing off an get a pizza.
Burg Gear bay bee buggy bump hers. Are we clear? ARE WE CLEAR? Perfectly clear.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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87gtNOS
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posted June 11, 2009 03:07 PM
Edited By: 87gtNOS on 11 Jun 2009 23:08
quote:
I can see it from here. It says. 0.62 to 4.14v w/key fob on.
If dattaway has 1.62v.....Ear is a, Drum Roll....... We have a winner within spec. No need to head for the dealer except wit ha fresh slice of 2 may toe. Well, you say 2 mod dough, I say two MOToe.... Lettuce call the whole thing off an get a pizza.
Burg Gear bay bee buggy bump hers. Are we clear? ARE WE CLEAR? Perfectly clear.
pissear, the spec given is NOT the acceptable range as it appears you are implying.....rather the spec given is the 'opening to closing' spec.
side note (then again hub, sometimes I can't translate what you really mean!)
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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Shane661
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posted June 11, 2009 03:08 PM
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pissear
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posted June 11, 2009 03:10 PM
Zero to WOT is .062 to 4.14 or higher.
WOT to Zero is. 4,14 or lower slightly.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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87gtNOS
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posted June 11, 2009 03:12 PM
quote:
Zero to WOT is .062 to 4.14 or higher.
WOT to Zero is. 4,14 or lower slightly.
Yes hub, I thought you may have been implying that 1.62v CLOSED was within an acceptable range of 0.62 to 4.75!!!
____________
01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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pissear
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posted June 11, 2009 03:17 PM
Watt is 1.62v on the datta set? I am about to reinstall the throttle body and match the datta so we are on the same page.
I am not going to say 1.62v is going to do what. I have no clue what it will do assfactor wise. I do know if you dial those in, you will receive some change.
Now, is it going to swing some change? Probably. How much of a change? I'll find out soon enough.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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dubious
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posted June 11, 2009 05:31 PM
I think its great that everyone is contributing and showing interest, but we do not need to get hostile or angry... that won't solve anything...
Difference of opinions is acceptable, and expected!
Its a debate , not a fight!
 
Carry on! 
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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pissear
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posted June 11, 2009 07:40 PM
Port... < You know, I skimmed through this and did not read Port's last post. He's a pisser! Zinger at the end. You can't make this swing the way it wants to. Let Ports ah call... It like it is. You are not going to change Port's thinking because he like I, also see it futile, as both Port is correct and so is, gtNOS.
Datta is doing the work at making some tunes and I can't stop the experiments by datta. He's thinking out of the box and knows that bike better than you think.
He should have never shown you those musical notes as in a sweetune is gonna PAz Year azz is UP anyway. Gonna out tune me UP will you! (jk)
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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FastestBusaAround
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posted June 11, 2009 09:18 PM
Guys, 2 posters said something that makes sense. If the shaft is actually connected to the primary TPS, (which I knew was there and why the manual refers to the secondary TPS as "Subthrottle" TPS), then the problem occurs when the shaft is no longer connected to the primary TPS and that's why all the issues.
Now, we know that the bike HAS to have a .62 Volt setting on idle/engine on but no idle, and that Dattaway2 has it set for 1.62. If you two are right and the shaft had a connection to the primary TPS, this will never work, no matter what.
BTW, the voltage output off the TPS's isn't what causes the flies to open - that voltage tells the ECU what's up and the ECU makes the decision based on that input, amongst other factors, as some others here have already said. The TPS voltage is only a reading which is sent to the ECU, nothing more.
More importantly - Lyle, did you see somewhere in your travels through the bike that connection to the primary off the secondary shaft?
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FYYFF!!!
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