Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted June 03, 2009 05:08 PM
quote:
I can't see any real benefit other than the "Hey look what I did." Cool factor.
There is irony to be found here. 
  
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted June 03, 2009 05:39 PM
quote:
But isn't the same "15-20%" intake reduction STILL present by the same area taken up by the primary flies and their accompanying shaft? I can't see any real benefit other than the "Hey look what I did." Cool factor.
Shit, you ruined it for me!! I was really thinking about this mod!
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
Manager Star Toyota Bayside,NY
Posts: 214
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posted June 03, 2009 06:00 PM
quote:
quote:
But isn't the same "15-20%" intake reduction STILL present by the same area taken up by the primary flies and their accompanying shaft? I can't see any real benefit other than the "Hey look what I did." Cool factor.
Shit, you ruined it for me!! I was really thinking about this mod!
My apologies lol.
____________
Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted June 03, 2009 06:30 PM
quote:
quote:
But isn't the same "15-20%" intake reduction STILL present by the same area taken up by the primary flies and their accompanying shaft? I can't see any real benefit other than the "Hey look what I did." Cool factor.
Shit, you ruined it for me!! I was really thinking about this mod!
It is probably beneficial to have as many extra shafts in the intake tract as possible...right?
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted June 03, 2009 06:37 PM
quote:
It is probably beneficial to have as many extra shafts in the intake tract as possible...right?
Shane, I think there should be no FI light or error code as long as the TPS is allowed to function as if it was on the TB.
I am going to take a good look at mine when I installed the APE tensioner.......
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
Manager Star Toyota Bayside,NY
Posts: 214
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posted June 03, 2009 06:42 PM
 Edited By: NYC ZX-14 on 4 Jun 2009 02:43
quote:
It is probably beneficial to have as many extra shafts in the intake tract as possible...right?
Not what I was suggesting, and since you seem BENT on confronting my post here, as long as they are in line and aren't side by side within the given airstream, the effect of having one more or less won't affect air VOLUME passing through the given space. Air FLOW (turbulence) on the other hand will vary and is impossible to predict without benefit of wind tunnel simulations. For example, PERHAPS the secondary's bar, if left in place, might just HELP airflow by breaking it in two before the air encounters the primary's shaft. Then again it may hurt airflow if it creates vorticies and eddys to curl back on themselves PRIOR to reaching the primary bar.
A truly AWESOME mod would be to REPLACE the secondary's bar with a fixed or moveable aerodynamic bar shaped to "cut" the flow and help direct it over the primary butterflies. :oP
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted June 03, 2009 06:44 PM
quote:
quote:
It is probably beneficial to have as many extra shafts in the intake tract as possible...right?
Not what I was suggesting, and since you seem BENT on confronting my post here, as long as they are in line and aren't side by side within the given airstream, the effect of having one more or less won't affect air VOLUME passing through the given space. Air FLOW (turbulence) on the other hand will vary and is impossible to predict without benefit of wind tunnel simulations. For example, PERHAPS the secondary's bar, if left in place, might just HELP airflow by breaking it in two before the air encounters the primary's shaft. Then againg it may hurt airflow if it creates vorticies and eddys to curl back on themselves PRIOR to reaching the primary bar.
A truly AWESOME mod would be to REPLACE the secondary's bar with a fixed or moveable aerodynamic bar shaped to "cut" the flow and help direct it over the primary butterflies. :oP
Blah..blah..blah....don't you have some led's to install?
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
Manager Star Toyota Bayside,NY
Posts: 214
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posted June 03, 2009 06:46 PM
quote:
Blah..blah..blah....don't you have some led's to install?
Nahhh, no more room lol.
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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FastestBusaAround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 03, 2009 08:07 PM
quote:
I think FBA has it right.
Not stating the bleedin obvious, but aren't TPS really Variable Resistors?
Most that i know of, can be rotated (the housing), slightly so as to adjust the voltage as FBA is quoting.
But from the pics it looks like to me as though there is no room for rotating.
It rotates on the shaft --
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FYYFF!!!
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kaw now
Expert Class
Posts: 446
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posted June 03, 2009 08:08 PM
Speaking of turbulence I did a little experiment with a row boat using two different inline hulls and found the turbulence created by the first made it difficult to move. Don't have a flow bench but seems like the same could be possible. No one has flow tested the shaft without the plates installed but it can't be that clean airflow wise. I also did some reading about motorcycle aerodynamics and they said that the front forks were poor aerodynamically so with throttle shafts being roughly the same cylinder shape could be. The turbulence could be much larger than the actual size of the shafts also. So there is my theory of the day.
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
Manager Star Toyota Bayside,NY
Posts: 214
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posted June 03, 2009 08:26 PM
All I know is that with my secondaries removed, my 14 has more than enough power to flip me over backwards at will and at speeds exceeding triple digits. How much more power do I need? None thanks. I'll leave my secondary bar alone. lol
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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MJ
Zone Head
Posts: 560
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posted June 04, 2009 04:23 AM
quote:
All I know is that with my secondaries removed, my 14 has more than enough power to flip me over backwards at will and at speeds exceeding triple digits. How much more power do I need? None thanks. I'll leave my secondary bar alone. lol
Where's the fun in that? lol
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pissear
Expert Class
Professional Cockis Slap Peer
Posts: 309
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posted June 04, 2009 06:23 AM
Dis ear be my theory of the day is step dis way:
1. I open a door to get to the chamber. I am running, btw, so I have to stop, open the door and you step the rest.
2. I now have no door but now I have a bar between the door well now I have to either tuck and jump. Stop mid run and ruin my flow is under the bar and have I moved any faster if I just opened the door?
3. No bar in sight. No door in sight. Hole in the head am I headed full speed and nothing in the way to slow me down is I am at full speed, no door to open, no bar to jump.
BeatChew at the pay window one more time is walk my junk mail is post the day's theory.
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way too much light in the place is shoot the lights out and make it really dark inn year ear is F YO and the bike you clanked in on.
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Obba
Expert Class
Posts: 455
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posted June 05, 2009 04:04 PM
LOL!! Pissear, you crack me up man!! 
Translation time:
I think pissear is saying that it will be better for air flow if the shaft is not there.
Mix this mod with the 46mm throttle body mod as the other thread and it has to improve things right?
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted June 07, 2009 05:37 PM
dattaway
Any updates?
any luck adjusting the servo/ tp sensor position?
I was considering doing the same mod, as I could use the added space before the primaries since my secondary injectors are pretty close to the shaft.
If you care to discuss, email me your phone number, and I will call you!
eldubois at telus dot net
Would be much appreciated!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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FastestBusaAround
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I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 08, 2009 04:30 AM
Lyle - it should be pretty easy to adjust...just measure your voltage at rest before and after you reposition the TPS. I'd bet that not every bike produced identical start voltage from factory. In theory, once you've got the same voltage after the mod, you're back to the stock position and you should see no FI light.
I'm guessing that his cold throttle issue is only due to that problem. I can't think of any reason that it would have anything to do with something other than the TPS mod. Also, I'd measure the voltage before start, (ignition on), then during warm-up on a cold motor, and then again once warmed up. This way you're guaranteed to get the desired results. Just make sure the bikes battery has a full charge before you start and perhaps repeat the process a few times over a few days to be sure you get the same results each time.
The more I think about what he's experiencing, the more I'm convinced it's only about his TPS position. If the ECU is seeing higher voltage during warm-up, it would probably not invoke the correct fuel mapping, if the voltage is out of the spec'd range.
If he gets this all sorted out, this will be the 1st successful mod to the flies/shaft that everyone's been looking for since 2006! I'm guessing that the reason no one's ever gotten it right till now, is only because of the secondary TPS being on the picture. His approach to the problem was very smart and practical. Maybe he should patent the mod.
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FYYFF!!!
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dattaway2
Novice Class
Ninja's rule
Posts: 51
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posted June 08, 2009 04:42 AM
I'm about to redo the TPS position today. I bet its off since I winged it without checking the voltage. I'm going to get this to work one way or another.
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FastestBusaAround
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I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 08, 2009 05:47 AM
Be sure to let us all know how it turns out!
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FYYFF!!!
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Sticks_n_Stones
Needs a job
Posts: 3930
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posted June 08, 2009 06:41 AM
TPS's are multi adjustable dont forget! The full throttle voltage is just as important as the idle voltage, and the way you got it setup (and how sensitive they are to the smallest movement) means that it will be hard to get just right. Maybe making a small plate to go between the two with mounting holes for both the TPS and servo motor would be best? Then you could adjust it OEM style until its at the right voltage parameters. Would be simpler and better then epoxy'ing them permanently together. Good luck!
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'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted June 08, 2009 06:43 AM
quote:
TPS's are multi adjustable dont forget! The full throttle voltage is just as important as the idle voltage, and the way you got it setup (and how sensitive they are to the smallest movement) means that it will be hard to get just right. Maybe making a small plate to go between the two with mounting holes for both the TPS and servo motor would be best? Then you could adjust it OEM style until its at the right voltage parameters. Would be simpler and better then epoxy'ing them permanently together. Good luck!
WTF are you doing here?
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dattaway2
Novice Class
Ninja's rule
Posts: 51
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posted June 08, 2009 06:44 AM
Yep, I'm off by a full volt at idle... 1.62 volts between bl/wh and br/bk...
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dattaway2
Novice Class
Ninja's rule
Posts: 51
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posted June 08, 2009 07:08 AM
hmmm... it wants 1.62 volts at idle:
http://www.dattaway.net/tps.avi <--8MB mpeg2 video
problem seems I didn't give it enough room at the end of the closed position... I'm letting the epoxy dry and going for a ride in a few...
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dubious
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Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted June 08, 2009 07:20 AM
Cool, keep us updated!
I really want to do this mod, as the bar is right in the way for my new 2ndary injectors.
Thanks for the input Steve.
I was think along the same lines.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted June 08, 2009 08:50 AM
How about removing both sets of butterflys and having a big one in the front of the airbox just behind the filter? That would clean up the airflow in the bellmouths.
The tps would have to be there too but the airbox is sealed and no throttle body balancing would be neccessary.
Just a crazy thought.
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Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted June 08, 2009 09:02 AM
OK,
I happen to have my throttle bodies putting new injectors in, on the bench and looked this all over really close.
The problem here is the 2nd stepper motor activates the rod, which has a linkage on the end that opens the primaries for high speed idle control.
The primary shaft TPS is not openeing, and the ecu see's that throwing a code.
I am not concerned about the cold start idle, I am willing to babysit the bike, or ride it slow till it warms up, so this is na non issue for me.
My concern is the possibilities of getting codes while riding, or limp home mode caused by them.
Dattaway2, if you could explain in detail what codes you are seeing if any, after the bike is warm that would be great! Are you ever getting a limp home mode?
If i open the throttle manualy when its cold idling can I prevent codes?
Thanks for any insight.
Lyle
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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