rtbain
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posted May 12, 2009 10:07 AM
Probable FAQ – ECU top speed/low gear power limiter
Probable FAQ – ECU top speed/low gear power limiter
Is there a FAQ?
Like many on this forum I am interested in top speed runs on my ZX14. Not really interested in ¼ mile other than for testing. Main reason is I suck at it.
Unlike yall I am a bit clueless on a couple of details. There seems to be two limiters built into the ECU.
1. Low gear acceleration. If the information I have gleaned from reading the net is accurate this can be remedied by a timing retard eliminator. Basically works by fooling the ECU into thinking it is always in top cog.
2. Top speed limiter. Again, if I read correctly this can be fooled by a speed healer. This unit modifies the speed signal to the ECU so the limiter is never activated.
One modification that routinely pops up is “fly removal”. I don’t really see how the mass of a few little bugs could make any difference but I am willing to try just about anything.
If the butterflies are used by the ECU to retard performance, removing them could well be a cheap fix. If the ECU is programmed for them to be installed it seems likely that simply removing them would adversely affect the fuel/air mixture.
My question is this. Assuming a stone stock engine (2007), intake and exhaust, what modifications are necessary to remove any ECU inhibits? I want to get the engine running “normal” before starting down the road to higher performance.
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Randy
   
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pazx14rider
Zone Head
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posted May 12, 2009 10:29 AM
Removing the secondary butterflies eliminates the low end (bogg) A speedo healer will eliminate the ecu from governing the top speed. If you remove the secondaries its good to add a full system and a pc3 and have the correct mapping to go with.
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rtbain
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posted May 12, 2009 01:09 PM
Pazx14rider,
Thanks for the quick reply. Since the project is experimental, well for me anyway, I am considering with a Timing Retard Eliminator. Can't afford the pipe, PCIII or dyno time to refine the f/a map.
All ready have my reservations in Goliad for the Texas Mile.
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Randy
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted May 12, 2009 01:24 PM
Doing on the cheap ....TRE and a 39 or 40 tooth rear sprocket will do the trick ..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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2002 zx12
Novice Class
2002 zx12
Posts: 67
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posted May 12, 2009 01:24 PM
Even with the tree installed it is definetly reccomended to have a PC3 because that changes the air fuel down low also.
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
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posted May 12, 2009 03:26 PM
quote:
Even with the tree installed it is definetly reccomended to have a PC3 because that changes the air fuel down low also.
Well if he is racing the mile it will not be down low for long ...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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LLcooljebb
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posted May 12, 2009 08:23 PM
quote:
quote:
Even with the tree installed it is definetly reccomended to have a PC3 because that changes the air fuel down low also.
Well if he is racing the mile it will not be down low for long ...
Could rtbain not install the TRE and still get good mile runs (if he keeps the rpm's up)...would the flies not opening early adversely affect LSR? Just wondering as it might save him some $ and tuning. Speedohealer is a must.
____________
"no time to be void or save up on life
you got to spend it all.."
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted May 12, 2009 08:47 PM
quote:
Pazx14rider,
Thanks for the quick reply. Since the project is experimental, well for me anyway, I am considering with a Timing Retard Eliminator. Can't afford the pipe, PCIII or dyno time to refine the f/a map.
All ready have my reservations in Goliad for the Texas Mile.
real cheap is to use a 275 ohm resistor to make your own TRE. this will show 6th gear all the time and use the 6th gear map.. you wont need to change fuel for that. Stock 6th gear map is 10% rich on the top end,
Use an 18 tooth front sprocket and you wont need a speedohealer...and your speedometer will be dead on ....
You will still need to have a good launch to get a good run in the mile, it just isnt long enough to get to terminal speed. So go to the local dragstrip and get some practice.
without a pipe and PC3 I doubt you will hit 190 mph, but it is fun to see what it will do :-)
Roy
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rtbain
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posted May 13, 2009 04:05 AM
Thanks to everyone for the advice. Did some number crunching on the budget and decided on the following modifications for the October Texas Mile.
Baseline dyno run. I am a records freak from my old roadracing days.
TRE. I appreciate the resistor recommendation but want to keep things sanitary. Ivan’s is supposed to have an ECU speed limiter bypass “soon”.
Speedometer Healer. The 18 tooth front sprocket is a nice touch. Since my launch skills suck I’ll stick with the lower 17 tooth gearing. If Ivan’s comes through I’ll probably skip the speedometer healer.
Clueless newbie thought. Can the ECU speed sensor be disconnected without detrimental effect? It seems to me that if it can be lied to maybe it can be ignored.
Head to the drag strip and practice. Possessing no shame is very helpful here. What is a good launch RPM with standard tire pressure? Since I will be practicing for the mile I prefer to keep everything consistent.
I hold no delusions about cracking 200mph my first time out. My initial concerns are safety, learning the drill and braking from nearly two tons. That will be an experience.
Any braking advice?
Wrongway mentioned the bike was 10% rich on the big end. Was this measured on a dyno or with an onboard f/a meter like a Wego?
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Randy
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted May 14, 2009 08:28 PM
 Edited By: wrongway on 15 May 2009 04:29
quote:
Clueless newbie thought. Can the ECU speed sensor be disconnected without detrimental effect? It seems to me that if it can be lied to maybe it can be ignored.
Yes , I have run 20 + miles with no sensor with no codes. Ivan tested that also when he thought I was wrong. He also saw no issues with the speed sensor disconnected.
quote:
Head to the drag strip and practice. Possessing no shame is very helpful here. What is a good launch RPM with standard tire pressure? Since I will be practicing for the mile I prefer to keep everything consistent.
I am not a pro drag racer , so other may be able to help more. with the flys in , you may want to try launching at 5k and ride the clutch out and twisting the throttle.with the flys out you can drop the rpm own to 4k.
I hold no delusions about cracking 200mph my first time out. My initial concerns are safety, learning the drill and braking from nearly two tons. That will be an experience.
Any braking advice?
the bike has awesome brakes. At maxton I can make the first turn out ( 1/4 mile ) with good braking, Roll off the throttle and you may not have to brake at all at texas... just dont sit up at speeds over 180 mph... Don't ask :-)
quote:
Wrongway mentioned the bike was 10% rich on the big end. Was this measured on a dyno or with an onboard f/a meter like a Wego?
measured on my wideband O2 , and you can look at the factory maps for the PC3. I am sure they take out fuel on the top end.
Roy
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rtbain
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posted May 15, 2009 04:48 AM
Roy,
Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.
Many moons ago I ran a "fast" (for the time anyway) bike at Texas World Speedway. This was when they were still using the north bowl. I made the mistake of sitting up for turn one at about 150mph. Whew doggy! Never tucked in so fast in my life.
My personal best estimated top speed to date is around 160mph (calculated). Since then I have spoken with many riders who claim to have gone fast. I dismiss those who show no trace of fear in their eyes remembering such velocities.
You never forget how the world changes around 130mph. There are no atheists above 150mph. All who have been there know well the prayer of those about to push the envelope “Please God, don’t let me f**kup.”
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Randy
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Sticks_n_Stones
Needs a job
Posts: 3930
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posted May 15, 2009 06:48 AM
'bain if you thought life changes after 130mph, be forewarned because once past the 170mph mark it gets even more different. Big thing is be expecting it to be hard to breath. The pressure of the flow over the bike creates a vacuum pocket behind the windshield. Every guy who I've talked to who has gone over 170 or so has experienced that - and we ALL thought it was just us or the adrenaline etc...
Make sure you have a tight fitting helmet strapped down as tight as you can get it or else the buffeting and odd pressures at high speed will rotate the helmet down requiring you to try and turn your head up - not easy when in full crouch!
Another thing: get a good buddy and have him stand infront of your bike while you sit on it in your full crouch position with the bike on a stand. Have him put his head level with the windshield and eyeball every part of your body sticking into the windstream. You need to minimize that! Using a camcorder also works if a buddy you can count on isn't handy.
And dont forget the basics: mirror removal, rear pegs removal, blinder removal, lower the bike at least through the forks (don't know how much is practical though, but bike height is a big deal on aero drag).
BobC and a couple others on here are diehard top speed guys and can help you more than me. two things I do know: the speedo will register past 188mph bone stock, but the computer knows where the "real" 188mph is and will not let you pass it. I hit my limiter at aprx 195mph indicated. Second, even with a PCIII, high quality exhaust, high flow air filter, flies out, everything possible removed, and a small and talented rider onboard most 14's have trouble breaking the 200mph mark in the mile. Hell, even at tracks that are more than a mile. Bone stock like yours? Assuming medium sized rider with good skill, I would guess you would be hard pressed to hit the speed limiter in the standing mile, with a top possible speed of 192-194mph in average conditions at sea level.
____________
'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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rtbain
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posted May 15, 2009 08:36 AM
Sticks n Stones
Life changed at 130, became strange at 150, I can only imagine what life in rarified speeds holds.
I have an Arai, one piece leathers (no speed hump, damnit) close fitting gauntlet gloves and boots.
The motorbike will be prepped as pretty much as recommended save for ride height. I hadn’t thought about that one. Dropping the front end would seem to reduce rake/trail; is that a good idea when making for the big end?
Excuse my ignorance but what is a “blinder”? Can I assume a typo and think blinker? Since they are molded into the fairing then only option I can think of is to remove them and carefully tape them over.
Thanks for the advice.
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Randy
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fastestbusaaround
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I eat Fish...
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posted May 15, 2009 09:09 AM
quote:
TRE. I appreciate the resistor recommendation but want to keep things sanitary. Ivan’s is supposed to have an ECU speed limiter bypass “soon”.
That's exactly what the ZX14 TRE is - just that resistor in a box and some wires. You pay big bread for that...
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FYYFF!!!
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rtbain
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posted May 15, 2009 11:59 AM
quote:
That's exactly what the ZX14 TRE is - just that resistor in a box and some wires. You pay big bread for that...
I appreciate the heads up. I realize I am paying way too much for the wiring harness and factory connectors. Even a wire wound 10W 275ohm resistor is well under $5.
I am an electrician specializing in relay and control. It’s got to be sanitary. Also I would like to be able to put the bike to stock trim when I am "through" with the project.
The problem is the more I ride it the better I like it. It will never replace the R1200GS as a general all around two-up mount or the KTM 690SMR as a play bike. But the ZX14 has really impressed me so far.
In the bad old days a bike with that much hos' pwr would be nearly unrideable on the street. This bike is amazing, happy putting along at parking lot speeds, REALLY happy when the throttle is opened up. But let’s face it the ZX14 is a bit of a pig. A really fast pig to be certain.
My only complaints are riding position and handling. But then I didn’t buy it to tour on. And before I get flamed I am sure there are many ZX14 owners out there who would disagree with my assessment. Please realize I am an old geezer who prefers an upright seating position and handlebars. Clipons are for race bikes.
The further I get into this project the more I realize the ZX14 is a permanent addition to the stable.
This bike is Bonneville bound, a longtime dream of mine. From there it will be a pampered LSR/mile bike whose hobby is having other sport bikes for Sunday brunch.
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Randy
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Sticks_n_Stones
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posted May 15, 2009 12:47 PM
Edited By: Sticks_n_Stones on 15 May 2009 20:51
heli bar risers are what you are looking for, also get a good 4 into 1 exhaust, PCIII and yank those goddawful secondary fly's, and a must do is replace the stock rear spring. Racetec's installed by the dealer will cost you $300 total. Best money I ever spent on a all around mod! Pulling the flies was the best free mod EVER on ANY bike ever made, PERIOD!
From guys who drag race, to guys who topspeed, to those who actually tour on there 14's and those whose riding consists of going to the local cruise spot and bench race, 99% of those that have pulled there flies swear by it making it a better bike. Matter of fact, I've only heard of one guy who actually put them back in! A few of the over there head guys who admitted to rarely or never having taken the bike to redline had said they liked it better stock (but never changed it back). You want it to not feel like such a big pig? Racetec springs front and rear, aftermarket featherweight rims, and a exhaust change will knock off 50 +/- pounds and make you swear you were riding a steroided out 1000. 
____________
'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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rtbain
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posted May 15, 2009 01:27 PM
 Remember my frame of reference is a KTM 690SMR. Depending on the road of course a tard is hard to beat. I prefer tight twisty back roads for fun. It’s just not the ZX14’s element.
BIG problem is boss lady. She looked at me funny when I bought the tard. “Where am I supposed to sit on THAT thing?” Baby, it’s a solo bike; for when you don’t want to go.
When the ZX14 showed up in the garage I got the “I ain’t no possum girl” speech. Baby, it’s for Bonneville. I am going to sell it when the project is finished. Then came the “sure it will” look.
I realize the ZX14 can be modified to be a reasonable sport touring bike. But touring to me is down any navigable road. Boss lady demands a heated seat and XM radio. The R1200GS is pretty hard to beat for versatility and comfort. Plus it has an alternator that will light a small town.
As long as she doesn’t read this post I am gold. I mean the ZX14 HAS to be ridden every week to keep the seals from drying out, right?
The butterflies will come out after tomorrow's first dyno run. I want a baseline to work from.
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Randy
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted May 15, 2009 08:37 PM
quote:
The butterflies will come out after tomorrow's first dyno run. I want a baseline to work from.
so your budget has changed also ?
quote:
Thanks for the quick reply. Since the project is experimental, well for me anyway, I am considering with a Timing Retard Eliminator. Can't afford the pipe, PCIII or dyno time to refine the f/a map.
you should use a PC3 with flys out. I know that some folks have run no flys without a PC3 but you will be lean at 3k-6k rpm in first gear . Since you will only be there for a short time probably no big deal. It may be cheaper to launch at 6k and be past the restricted part of the map , but a little harder on the clutch :-)
Bonneville is different in that you will not have traction but have much longer to get to speed. Flys in may be better there. I have never run there , so I am not the expert on that subject.
For the mile , it is like a long drag strip and you need everything you can get as quickly as possible.
Roy
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rtbain
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posted May 16, 2009 04:47 AM
Roy,
Thanks for the reminder about removing the butterflies. I was getting carried away.
The budget has not changed. I was probably unclear. A baseline dyno run was in the budget. What is slowing me was the initial purchase price of the bike. That sucked up most of my play money.
The Grand Plan: (no plan ever survives first contact with reality)
1. Purchase the bike
2. Make required and sane safety modifications
3. Get a baseline dyno run
4. Begin assembling lower cost parts as funds become available
5. Run the Texas Mile in October ‘09
6. Pray for a good Christmas.
7. Run the Texas Mile in March ‘10
8. Begin process of getting a pipe and fuel management system
9. Run the Texas Mile in October ‘10
10. Finish acquiring the pipe and fuel management system. Install and tune. Requires dyno time.
11. Run the Texas Mile in March ‘11
12. If “ready” go for Bonneville in September ‘11
13. Once +200mph is made sell the bike and move on to a new project.
Here is the rub. I really like the ZX and will probably keep it. Bonneville has been a dream of mine for some time. The more I learn about Bonneville the more I realize how difficult to make +200 will be. Salt conditions vary. Getting weathered out on my one shot is a possibility. I can only afford to go once and that is going to be a stretch.
Bonneville is still in the plan but the reality of it has sobered the dream. But the original plan allowed that this would be a learning experience, in fact that is the point. Thanks to yall I understand the events are as different as night and day.
I am hooked and its yall's fault.
____________
Randy
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rtbain
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posted May 16, 2009 12:19 PM
Got back from the first dyno run. Much of the information I received here was spot on, thanks.
Interesting, to me anyway, results.
Speedo was wildly optimistic. +15mph high on the big end.
ECU speed limiter shut things down at 175.7mph at an indicated 10250 rpm.
The f/a mixture gets progressively rich starting at 9.5K
The engine horse power was still climbing though it had begun to level off at 9K. Dyno operator reckoned the engine will pull 11K easy with stock valve train before dropping off.
The bike, with 750 miles on the clock pulled 148.22bhp (corrected – 1.0286) which is about average from what that dyno has seen.
Now I have a good starting point.
First modification will be the speed healer.
____________
Randy
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Sticks_n_Stones
Needs a job
Posts: 3930
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posted May 18, 2009 05:33 AM
rtbain, click here and see what SAE hp numbers will be like with a full exhaust. This dyno was the lowest I've yet run on, but also the highest quality dyno and they even gave out "dynojet" hp numbers to compare to the cheaper dynojet dyno's that are running around throwing out unrealistic numbers. My 165hp run would have been in the 170's if the ramair feeding variable air pressure setup had the correct tubes to accomodate the zx14's long wheelbase. That 165 SAEhp number was 182rwhp on a dynojet according to there conversion they did for us (though every dyno varies and never go by a set number yada yada yada...)
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=46267&pagenumber=12
____________
'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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