Blue_XIV
Parking Attendant
Posts: 4
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posted February 05, 2009 08:13 PM
Is removing the flies on an 06-07 really the best answer?
I was thinking about removing the secondary flies on my 2007 ZX14. The more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I am about trying it.
(I know most of you swear by it, but hear me out)
I am not disputing that the bottom end performance is increased, but I am not sure that removing the secondary butterflies is the right answer.
I included my line of thinking…I don’t know if it is right…I am just putting this out there for discussion.
ZX-14 – has electronic fuel injection with 4 throttle plates
2 primaries
2 secondaries
Primaries open first, secondaries don’t open until higher rpm is reached
This is why it is a little lazy on the bottom end.
2006-2007 – Modification – (as recommended by every forum I can find)
Remove secondary butterflies.
Claim – increases bottom end power without effecting top end performance.
Requirements – screwdriver & fuel remapping.
Other methods of fuel delivery to an internal combustion engine (that I am familiar with)
Enderle birdcatcher – mechanical fuel injection – (drag race applications)
4 barrel carburetor
Observation:
• When the throttle is opened on either a carburetor or birdcatcher…engine rpm’s increase
• If one or more of the butterflies were removed and left open, engine would rev fast if it could pull enough fuel and/or quit from a lean condition (not enough fuel for the air received). Likewise, if fuel is removed...leaving the air intake the same, engine rpm increases until it reaches a point where it is so lean it will no longer continue to run.
Theory:
• 2006-2007 - ZX14 is weak on the bottom end because of delayed opening of secondaries.
• Removing the secondaries is the equivalent to having the throttle half open at idle.
• The reason it works is because the electronic fuel injection and ignition compensates keeping the rpm’s in check.
Results:
• Throttle response increased up to about 1/3 to ½ throttle, then it starts to feel normal. (This is a guess…those of you that have done this mod…please tell me what the actual result is)
• Probable lean condition at idle and/or rough idle, resulting in extra heat in the engine. (lean = horsepower & heat)
Recommendation:
• Find a person/company that can figure out how to make the secondaries open up earlier, without having to remove them.
Thoughts?
  
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted February 05, 2009 08:26 PM
Is removing the flies on an 06-07 really the best answer?
Yes.
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 05, 2009 08:27 PM
Remove the secondary throttle plates.
It works great. The bike is smooth and powerful when properly mapped.
Shane
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bawls
Needs a job
re-learning to ride
Posts: 2701
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posted February 05, 2009 08:38 PM
 Edited By: bawls on 6 Feb 2009 04:42
The bike has 8 plates... not 4. It has 4 primaries and 4 secondaries. The primaries open the way that the butterflies in a carbeurator would under normal working conditions. The secondaries are basically like covering the top of the carb with your hand until 6000 rpm and then moving it. Not only is the bike more powerful down low, but you get ride of the zero to wfo hit at 6k making it much more predictable and easier to ride. I've got 7k trouble free miles on my 07 with no flies and no mapping I just don't let it sit between 3500 and 4000 rpm for very long. I can guarantee you that as soon as you pull the flies you'll say the same thing that everyone else did... "why the hell didn't I do that to begin with?"
Btw... the company that can make them open earlier is kawasaki.... it's called the 08/09 zx14 which has flies that open at 3k vise 6.
____________
Best 60ft: 1.42
Best 1/8th: 5.97
Best 1/8th MPH: 119
Brockland Police Badge # 001
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 05, 2009 08:43 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 6 Feb 2009 04:54
quote:
Theory:
• 2006-2007 - ZX14 is weak on the bottom end because of delayed opening of secondaries.
True
• Removing the secondaries is the equivalent to having the throttle half open at idle.
False. The primary plates are nearly closed at idle as well.
• The reason it works is because the electronic fuel injection and ignition compensates keeping the rpm’s in check.
False. See #2.
Before:
After:
Hope this helps make things more clear.
Shane
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted February 05, 2009 09:11 PM
Get rid of em, put Brocks pipe, or a tiforce and 16 frt sproket with speedohealer...
a totally different animal!
The transmission and clutch will love you too!
less shifting and 5000 rpm drop the hammer launches!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Blue_XIV
Parking Attendant
Posts: 4
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posted February 05, 2009 09:21 PM
Shane -
That makes sense now. Thanks for the info/photos.
Like I said, it was just a theory and I wanted to see what people thought. I guess I could have torn into to see for myself, but I like to know why I am doing something before I do it. Change for the sake of change on a race car can be really expensive, so I try to learn what I can before I start messing with things.
It really doesn't make much sense to have two sets of throttle plates in line like that.
Now that I can see how it is designed...I am all for removal.
Thanks
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 05, 2009 09:25 PM
Check out my thread:
http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=27&TID=40269&set_time=
16 pages and 440 pics of my project bike. There are a lot of detailed photos.
Shane
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted February 05, 2009 09:29 PM
also Suzuki ... 08/9 busa has 3 settings triggered on the instrument cluster - my understanding is that this in essence allows for 3 different opening positions...
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted February 05, 2009 09:42 PM
The '09 R1 Yamaha has settings that specifically adjust the flies too.
The "A" drive mode is supposed to open the throttles bodies 30% faster for the first 50% of the throttle opening, increasing acceleration off the bottom.
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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kawasakijockey
Pro
Posts: 1876
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posted February 06, 2009 05:00 AM
If you dont want to pull them out spend 50 bucks on a TRE which will open the secondaries and put a TRE map in it. If you like it, great. You will. Or just buy an 08-or 09....
____________
Get on the shortbus boys 'cause its time to get schooled.
2007 ZX-14
1.38 60ft
9.03 @ 149mph
8.95 @153 small shot n2o
8.68 @160mph 5lbs boost
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smokehouse4444
Zone Head
XX to ZX
Posts: 648
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posted February 06, 2009 09:20 AM
I debated this with Johnny Cheese on an 08. So we did a little experiment. Believe me, even the 08 is better with the flies gone, particularly if you are dragracing it. Much more linear, much more predictable. If, however, you ride yours more like a sport tourer and rarely if ever drag race or really push it, leave'em in. That lazy spot down low makes for an easy-going ride.
____________
2008 Atomic Silver ZX-14, Brock's this and that, some other stuff, 260 in full gear, powered by Cheese
2005 Ducati 999 with all the goodies
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Old Guy
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted February 06, 2009 10:01 AM
Edited By: Old Guy on 6 Feb 2009 18:02
quote:
I debated this with Johnny Cheese on an 08. So we did a little experiment. Believe me, even the 08 is better with the flies gone, particularly if you are dragracing it. Much more linear, much more predictable. If, however, you ride yours more like a sport tourer and rarely if ever drag race or really push it, leave'em in. That lazy spot down low makes for an easy-going ride.
Dont agree with this. Really hated how the bike ran in low rpms w/flies. Yes you have to use a bit of throttle control without flies but as mentioned,the whole lower 1/2 of rpms is way smoother and linear on mine. Would NEVER put it back to stock.
See Brocks diaries about the whole tre, no fly issue. It will help.
Fly removal, plus a $200+ PCIII from the internet and stock no fly map is the first mod I suggest for 06-07 from my experience.
Then a cox radiator screen and switch on coolant fan.
Pipes and other stuff would come later.
I do alot of commuting and short tours with my 06. No flies makes it easier.
For track days it almost doesnt matter EXCEPT< (and its one BIG exception) I cant imagine what would happen when then flies opened unexpectedly in a high speed sweeper at full lean hanging off??
High side or low side. Your pick. 
____________
Living the good life...,
On a XZ !!!!!
Tsukigi stainless full system
pcIII w/custom map
NO freakin flies!!
GP suspension forks
Penske rear shock
Rich's custom seat
And a whole bunch of other stuff.
97 zx6r full race bike with all the
good stuff
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smokehouse4444
Zone Head
XX to ZX
Posts: 648
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posted February 06, 2009 10:45 AM
Not exactly sure what you do not agree with. I said that even on the 08's I would pull them; that it makes a big, positive difference. If you ride the bike like a Gold Wing, I would leave them in. Simple as that.
____________
2008 Atomic Silver ZX-14, Brock's this and that, some other stuff, 260 in full gear, powered by Cheese
2005 Ducati 999 with all the goodies
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Old Guy
Expert Class
Posts: 470
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posted February 06, 2009 11:02 AM
just the sport touring comment. Thats all smokehouse.
Just stating My "experience" touring is better with out flies, thats all bro
____________
Living the good life...,
On a XZ !!!!!
Tsukigi stainless full system
pcIII w/custom map
NO freakin flies!!
GP suspension forks
Penske rear shock
Rich's custom seat
And a whole bunch of other stuff.
97 zx6r full race bike with all the
good stuff
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Ninja_Knight
Zone Head
Posts: 666
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posted February 06, 2009 11:05 AM
quote:
Not exactly sure what you do not agree with. I said that even on the 08's I would pull them; that it makes a big, positive difference. If you ride the bike like a Gold Wing, I would leave them in. Simple as that.
Are you saying that if you are doing short commutes, and "keeping it legal" that ripping the flies would be a mistake? I thought it was just a wise idea regardless? It will be a while before I get my 09 to the track, so is it wise to take the flies out when hooking up my new Brock pipe, or what?
____________
2009 B&O Special Edition, Brock's CF Gen 3 Exhaust, Dark Smoke ZG Double Bubble Windshield, PCIII, Muzzy Fan, Heli Risers, Throttlemeister Heavy, Nautilus Stebel Horn, Waiting on HID's and Tinted Signal Lens
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 06, 2009 11:17 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 6 Feb 2009 19:18
Since you are a big guy and sometimes ride a passenger, I would suggest that you pull the files and go with one tooth smaller on the countershaft sprocket.
Shane
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Blue_XIV
Parking Attendant
Posts: 4
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posted February 06, 2009 11:36 AM
For those of you that have removed the flies and remapped....Is there ever a situation that you wish you could go back to stock, even temporarily?
How hard do you think it would be to invent or redesign a system similar to the one that Suzuki is using (referenced above)?
I don't believe that the a three step would be necessary, but what if, by the flip of a switch, you could override or reset the secondaries to open at the same time as the primaries.
This would take some mapping/programming skills because it would require an instant remapping from secondaries to no secondaries.
Maybe this idea is just too much work.
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Ninja_Knight
Zone Head
Posts: 666
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posted February 06, 2009 11:38 AM
Edited By: Ninja_Knight on 6 Feb 2009 19:40
quote:
Since you are a big guy and sometimes ride a passenger, I would suggest that you pull the files and go with one tooth smaller on the countershaft sprocket.
Shane
Okay cool. What will going to one tooth smaller on the countershaft sprocket do for me, if you don't mind me asking?
Edited due to retarded grammatical errors. Lol!
____________
2009 B&O Special Edition, Brock's CF Gen 3 Exhaust, Dark Smoke ZG Double Bubble Windshield, PCIII, Muzzy Fan, Heli Risers, Throttlemeister Heavy, Nautilus Stebel Horn, Waiting on HID's and Tinted Signal Lens
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The Blue Mule
Expert Class
Posts: 122
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posted February 06, 2009 11:46 AM
I did it and had the bike remapped and all it did was add a ton of power a lot lower.I can't say this helped my ET or mph in the quarter but I can tell you without a doubt, there is a shit ton more power for roll ons. I can be in 6th roll on the power to pass and never even think about downshifting. I think if you ride a zx-14 in the first place you obviously have horsepower issues so why not take advantage of the extra torque?
____________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeShEeglQ6E
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 06, 2009 12:03 PM
quote:
For those of you that have removed the flies and remapped....Is there ever a situation that you wish you could go back to stock, even temporarily?
How hard do you think it would be to invent or redesign a system similar to the one that Suzuki is using (referenced above)?
I don't believe that the a three step would be necessary, but what if, by the flip of a switch, you could override or reset the secondaries to open at the same time as the primaries.
This would take some mapping/programming skills because it would require an instant remapping from secondaries to no secondaries.
Maybe this idea is just too much work.
Nope, never a situation for me. I personally feel that the Suzuki setup is a gimmick.
If you want to make the bike weak at the flip of a switch, you could install the dynojet hub setup and pull a bunch of timing out by switching maps.
Does anyone here ever really feel that the power is "too much"??
Shane
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted February 06, 2009 12:07 PM
Edited By: Shane661 on 6 Feb 2009 20:23
quote:
Okay cool. What will going to one tooth smaller on the countershaft sprocket do for me, if you don't mind me asking?
More power available at any given road speed.
Read this:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0008_gearing/index.html
You won't be going 200 mph on your 14, so it will make a lot more power at any given speed if you regear it. The torque multiplication of the added gearing will help, especially with a passenger.
Shane
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Ninja_Knight
Zone Head
Posts: 666
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posted February 06, 2009 12:18 PM
Thank you! This is fantastic information!
____________
2009 B&O Special Edition, Brock's CF Gen 3 Exhaust, Dark Smoke ZG Double Bubble Windshield, PCIII, Muzzy Fan, Heli Risers, Throttlemeister Heavy, Nautilus Stebel Horn, Waiting on HID's and Tinted Signal Lens
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Bluebyyou
Expert Class
Gettin My Curve On
Posts: 276
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posted February 06, 2009 04:13 PM
Edited By: Bluebyyou on 7 Feb 2009 00:13
I like you was initially aprehensive. Grew increasingly tired of the lag. Pulled 'em, best thing I ever did. No regrets, improved the ridability 1000%.
____________
2007 Bad to the Bone ZX-14 flies out, full Muzzy exhaust system, PC III, BMC race
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted February 06, 2009 04:33 PM
Edited By: ninja12 on 7 Feb 2009 00:33
Pull flies step one then regear step 2.
Both at the same time is a very nice step up in bottom end power.
Never crossed my mind to put flies back.
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