countersteer
Needs a job
Didn't read the owners manual
Posts: 2207
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posted November 03, 2008 09:35 PM
a power commander is MANDATORY if you remove the secondary butterfly valves. this is a known FACT which has been thoroughly discussed and beaten to death for three years now.
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
   
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
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posted November 03, 2008 09:45 PM
 Edited By: NYC ZX-14 on 4 Nov 2008 05:46
quote:
I've ridden his bike and the only way that you can tell that there is a lean spike is by putting it on a dyno. Plugs look perfect on it. I personally think that if no one posted anything about a lean spike, everyone would pull their flies and not worry about it. I can't tell you the last time that I was at 3500 to 3700 rpm for more than a second or two. But then again, I've only put about 7 thousand miles on my bike since july lol.
I agree and have pulled the flies on mine. I LOVE the response and power gain.
I don't feel or hear any lean condition so it musn't be TOO bad though I'm sure it must exist since others have seen it on dyno maps. When I get a chance I'll dyno it and see how bad it is with my pipe/no-flies combo.
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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NYC ZX-14
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posted November 03, 2008 09:51 PM
quote:
a power commander is MANDATORY if you remove the secondary butterfly valves. this is a known FACT which has been thoroughly discussed and beaten to death for three years now.
I tend to agree with you CS and yet there are still many (myself included) who run without a PC. Has anyone ever witnessed damage from the no-flies mod without a PCIII? I hear lots of lean warnings and yet no proof that anything bad has actually happened to anyone who chose not to install a Power Commander.
I'm not talking about the usual internet bullshit of unfounded tales of doom but rather factual experiences.
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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countersteer
Needs a job
Didn't read the owners manual
Posts: 2207
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posted November 03, 2008 09:58 PM
actually, i think you should keep riding it without a power commander as you definetly do not need one.
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
Manager Star Toyota Bayside,NY
Posts: 214
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posted November 03, 2008 10:27 PM
quote:
actually, i think you should keep riding it without a power commander as you definetly do not need one.
Not sure how to interpert your post, but it seem to ooze a bit of sarcasm, which is forgiveable given your age (early 20's) and inexperience (only been riding since 2003?).
Judging by your post here: http://www.bikeland.org/board/viewthread.php?FID=13&TID=22250&set_time=1142709522 you seem to be a bike accesory salesman's wet dream, no wonder you swear by a PCIII. It's another gadget to tack on your bike when one has more money than sense.
I've been riding at high triple digit speeds before you were BORN, have owned a ZX-10, ZX-11 and now a ZX-14 among many others, have never been down, and have won more street races in my younger years than you have probably had in your short span of riding. Before you comment negatively about someone who's old enough to be your father, you may want to check their credentials so you don't come off as a horses ass.
If I misinterperted you post as sarcastic when in fact you weren't meaning to be, I sincerely apologize.
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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countersteer
Needs a job
Didn't read the owners manual
Posts: 2207
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posted November 03, 2008 10:41 PM
you obviously know more about a bike youve owned for a few months than the entire collective of bikeland has learned in the past three years.
apparently we are polar opposites, but i expect as much from someone who made a $3 exhaust which looks like complete shit. i can not fathom why someone would do what you have done to such a nice motorcycle. in short, you seem to be a real cheap-skate, and i doubt we will get along.
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Scott
Long Island, New York
2006 ZX-14, 2003 ZX-12R
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MJ
Zone Head
Posts: 560
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posted November 03, 2008 10:55 PM
Things are finally getting good....... 
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
Manager Star Toyota Bayside,NY
Posts: 214
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posted November 04, 2008 04:22 AM
quote:
Things are finally getting good.......
hehehe
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
Manager Star Toyota Bayside,NY
Posts: 214
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posted November 04, 2008 04:36 AM
quote:
you obviously know more about a bike youve owned for a few months than the entire collective of bikeland has learned in the past three years.
apparently we are polar opposites, but i expect as much from someone who made a $3 exhaust which looks like complete shit. i can not fathom why someone would do what you have done to such a nice motorcycle. in short, you seem to be a real cheap-skate, and i doubt we will get along.
I know enough to spot a loud mouth, ignorant bullshiter when I smell one. I've read your earliest posts on this board and know that you are really NOT the asshole you appear to be in this thread so I'll refrain from totally fucking you up verbally in this post. You once were a knowledge hungry informational sponge learning from those on here who knew (and still know) more than you or I. However you took what you read and ran off the deep end with the information, adding every "gee-wiz" mod there is to add to your bike without ever doing your OWN experimentation or learning anything for yourself through trial and error. I actually feel bad for you watching you live and ride in the shadow of those "better" than you.
Hopefully one day when you mature and gain some self confidence, you'll believe enough in your OWN abilities to strike out and "do your own thing". Then you'll be able to truely enjoy what riding and modding is all about. Being a fabricator and not a follower is infinitely more enjoyable!
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted November 04, 2008 04:48 AM
The bottom line is that the bike will run very, very lean in the lower rpm range if you do not use a Powercommander. You are adding a lot more air, but no fuel to compensate. Lean conditions such as this lead to elevated temperatures, which is not good for the engine.
Your bike has no way to know how lean it is running, and can do nothing to compensate. Whether you can "feel" how lean it is or not doesn't really matter when we are talking about such a lean condition. The reality is that it is not good for the engine.
Not to mention that you are not seeing much of the hp benefit without adding additional fuel.
Shane
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
Manager Star Toyota Bayside,NY
Posts: 214
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posted November 04, 2008 05:10 AM
Edited By: NYC ZX-14 on 4 Nov 2008 13:16
quote:
The bottom line is that the bike will run very, very lean in the lower rpm range if you do not use a Powercommander. You are adding a lot more air, but no fuel to compensate. Lean conditions such as this lead to elevated temperatures, which is not good for the engine.
Your bike has no way to know how lean it is running, and can do nothing to compensate. Whether you can "feel" how lean it is or not doesn't really matter when we are talking about such a lean condition. The reality is that it is not good for the engine.
Not to mention that you are not seeing much of the hp benefit without adding additional fuel.
Shane
Thanks Shane. Question for ya... Can I spot the elevated temperatures through the water temperature gauge I've installed? Or are we talking elevations present only in the combustion chamber (cylinder) which may not be spotted through the WATER temp gauge since the radiator effects cooling on the waterflow?
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted November 04, 2008 05:39 AM
this thread is hilarious. although it has been said infinite times already,
you need a PCIII correctly mapped for your bike's configuration if you want your bike to perform correctly/optimally and eliminate it running lean 
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted November 04, 2008 05:46 AM
You might see some elevated temps in traffic if cruising at that rpm. The excess heat has to go somewhere. But your exhaust valves will definitely see it.
Shane
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WindSwordNinja
Expert Class
Posts: 203
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posted November 04, 2008 06:30 AM
Way to go NYC ZX14 on removing the flys.
Back in my car racing days (before FI) we would adjust the jets on the carb according to the color of the spark plugs.
You could tell if your combustion camber was running too hot or cold (lean or rich), and adjust the jets accordingly.
Ride it around for a week or two, and pull out a plug to see what it looks like.
If it is in fact running running too lean you can decide then if you want to invest in a PC.
I like my PC because it does let me tinker with the air/fuel ratio, and I have some say as to what the little black box does controlling the EFI.
Did you have any trouble removing the plastic to get to the front tank bolts?
I'm taking out my flys on Friday.
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2014 ZX14 Black and Green
2008 ZX14 Black and Red SE
1986 ZX1000R Black
"Faster, faster! Faster would be better!" (Serenity)
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted November 04, 2008 06:40 AM
quote:
If it is in fact running running too lean you can decide then if you want to invest in a PC.
How many of us have already tried your experiment and posted results in these threads. The bike WILL run lean.
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted November 04, 2008 06:50 AM
Set yourself on fire, and if it burns, use some Bactine. If it doesn't burn, you're A-OK.
Shane
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted November 04, 2008 06:57 AM
quote:
Set yourself on fire, and if it burns, use some Bactine. If it doesn't burn, you're A-OK.
Shane
lmao! I was wondering when this silly thread would get all jacked up
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
Manager Star Toyota Bayside,NY
Posts: 214
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posted November 04, 2008 06:58 AM
quote:
quote:
If it is in fact running running too lean you can decide then if you want to invest in a PC.
How many of us have already tried your experiment and posted results in these threads. The bike WILL run lean.
Thanks and agreed. I know the bike will run lean. HOW lean is what I'm "experimenting" with. How fast the exhaust gasses exit based on the headers and muffler combo will also affect the burn temperature. Since I have a unique (some say ugly some say wild some say cool) exhaust combo with my stock, wrapped headers and automotive muffler, I'm curious as to how the bike will perform. I plan on getting some dyno time to see on paper exactly what's going on inside the motor.
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted November 04, 2008 07:02 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
If it is in fact running running too lean you can decide then if you want to invest in a PC.
How many of us have already tried your experiment and posted results in these threads. The bike WILL run lean.
Thanks and agreed. I know the bike will run lean. HOW lean is what I'm "experimenting" with. How fast the exhaust gasses exit based on the headers and muffler combo will also affect the burn temperature. Since I have a unique (some say ugly some say wild some say cool) exhaust combo with my stock, wrapped headers and automotive muffler, I'm curious as to how the bike will perform. I plan on getting some dyno time to see on paper exactly what's going on inside the motor.
kewl!
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
Manager Star Toyota Bayside,NY
Posts: 214
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posted November 04, 2008 07:03 AM
quote:
Way to go NYC ZX14 on removing the flys.
Back in my car racing days (before FI) we would adjust the jets on the carb according to the color of the spark plugs.
You could tell if your combustion camber was running too hot or cold (lean or rich), and adjust the jets accordingly.
Ride it around for a week or two, and pull out a plug to see what it looks like.
If it is in fact running running too lean you can decide then if you want to invest in a PC.
I like my PC because it does let me tinker with the air/fuel ratio, and I have some say as to what the little black box does controlling the EFI.
Did you have any trouble removing the plastic to get to the front tank bolts?
I'm taking out my flys on Friday.
The front tank plastic was a small pain in the butt but not too bad. Feels like you're going to break it as you pull on the sides before the mounts "pop" off. Then just slide it a bit forward and lift up. Be careful not to scratch the tank.
I miss the good 'ole carburation days when turning a jet screw was all one had to do to set up their motor!!!
I think I'll ask "Santa" for a PCIII for Christmas.
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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NYC ZX-14
Expert Class
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Posts: 214
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posted November 04, 2008 07:05 AM
quote:
Set yourself on fire, and if it burns, use some Bactine. If it doesn't burn, you're A-OK.
Shane
ROFLMAO!!!!! LOLOLOLOL
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Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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bawls
Needs a job
re-learning to ride
Posts: 2701
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posted November 04, 2008 08:24 AM
Like I said before... the only way to tell that it has a lean spike is by seeing the af ratio on a dyno. The bike really won't run any hotter, there is no noticeable loss in power, and the plugs look perfect. I'm sure that if you make it a point to go out and hole your bike at 3600 rpm for a long time then you'll see bad things happen eventually, but I would say that a pc3 isn't absolutely necessary. Just strongly recomended IF you can afford it. See for yourself. There are a lot of people on here with more money than talent or sense that just follow what is said like a bunch of sheep without doing any testing of their own. I ran into the same thing when I was sand dragging banshees back in the day. Everyone swore up and down that a 200 main jet and removing the airbox lid was the big ticket with fmf exhausts, but we found that a 165 and just removing the snorkle turned 2 tenths of a second faster through the 100yds. I was happy that no one wanted to believe me though, because it made my life much easier lol. Next we're going to hear that the only tire worth running on the street is a pilot power, and the only exhaust that performs is a brocks smeg. Take everything you read on here with a grain of salt, do your own thing, and if people don't want to listen to whatever works for you, then tell them to go fuck themselves. I think that dyno's are cool, but people rely on them way too much these days. What ever happened to real mechanics that could ride a bike, feel what it was doing and adjust? It's sad to think that those days are fading fast. It's not absolutely necessary to put a bike on the dyno. There's no replacement for seat time and real world experience.
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Best 60ft: 1.42
Best 1/8th: 5.97
Best 1/8th MPH: 119
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NYC ZX-14
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posted November 04, 2008 09:26 AM
bawls, your words express my thoughts EXACTLY. My father was a mechanic, body man and racer for more years than I'm alive and I always listened, watched and when I could, helped him in the shop. His ear, "feel" and experience always beat the shit out of the competition with all their maps, tuning and computers. It was an amazing thing to watch and experience.
I stopped by my Kawi dealer (who over the years has become my friend) today to pick up some chain lube and questioned him about my mods. The owner said I need not worry about my warranty, it'll be fine and he also said he ran his personal 2006 ZX-14 for over 20,000 miles without the flies and NO PCIII without a problem. He has done over 50 fly removals WITHOUT a PC and all are fine. Everyone there rides a 14 and they love the bike as much as we do.
My advice to anyone considering pulling their flies?? GO FOR IT! The bike really opens up down low. It feels as if a hundred pounds have been removed from the bike.
____________
Currently?
2007 Kawasaki ZX-14, 1999 Kawasaki VN 750, 1976 Suzuki RE-5 Rotary
http://www.goldiesplating.com
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted November 04, 2008 10:14 AM
Chain lube? What did you buy that for? Why not just run the chain as-is until you can draw your own conclusions about wear? I hear it is cheaper and much less clean-up. Sure, some of the idiots here claim it is not good for the chain...but I'm not so sure!
I remember old Mr. Barnslow putting Crisco on his Roto-Tiller chain...and that thing lasted forever!
He also used Crisco exclusively on his Banshee.
Shane
PS. Do whatever makes you happy! Just enjoy the bike! 
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Burnrubber1
Parking Attendant
Some chrome
Posts: 12
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posted November 04, 2008 10:29 AM
Has anyone ever been in sort of a hurry, when they just couldn't wait for their bike to totally warm up, and have to take off down the street? I'm just wondering because a couple of times I've had to do this and the power I felt is what I'm hoping is the same kind of power that I will get from removing the secondary flies. It's the,give you the giggles and nutsack shrinking kind of power!
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