Pilgrim1400
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
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posted July 18, 2008 02:27 AM
zx14 engine failure
My o6 zx14 developed an alarming engine noise which the dealer so far is unable to locate. Like a cross between a piston hitting a stuck valve and a big end failure. . Kawasaki Australia have no idea, and neither has the dealer. They are about to pull the engine apart to look for a cause.Has anybody any experience of something similar????
  
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lietoome
Needs a job
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posted July 18, 2008 03:38 AM
sent you a PM.
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zx13r
Expert Class
Capt-America
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posted July 18, 2008 04:34 AM
have them drop the oil pan and look for brass shavings.
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freddie900
Expert Class
zx 14 2007
Posts: 152
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posted July 18, 2008 04:08 PM
quote:
have them drop the oil pan and look for brass shavings.
what engine part would the the brass shaving come from
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Sticks_n_Stones
Needs a job
Posts: 3930
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posted July 18, 2008 04:30 PM
heh heh, at that point it dont matter Freddie. It's gotta come apart and have new bearings installed (most likely culprit for brass shavings). But don't bandaid it, find the cause before you fix the result! Could just be a somehow missed final torqueing on the rod or main caps, or as troublesome as a missaligned crank or warped block. Use a reputable engine rebuilder or better yet use your warranty and get a new one. If you go the warranty route, don't let them do a "fix", insist on a new engine.
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Pilgrim1400
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
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posted July 19, 2008 10:07 AM
Have tried the new engine route and at this stage Kawasaki Au are refusing. The sump has been removed and nothing has been found.Warranty expires in 4 weeks, and the engine has done 24,500 kilometers.
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
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posted July 19, 2008 04:52 PM
its srill their problem
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lietoome
Needs a job
Posts: 2033
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posted July 19, 2008 07:34 PM
Stick to your guns, Pilgrim. Make them do it right.
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pilgrim1400
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
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posted July 19, 2008 10:19 PM
will do and I keep you informed.
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obba
Expert Class
Posts: 455
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posted July 20, 2008 03:18 PM
Pilgrim where in Au are you?
Get a sound (or videocam), recording and post it on this site. There are many experts on this site who can tell a hell of a lot from a ZX14 engine sound.
Has the actual dealer heard this sound himself? Or is the case of everytime you get their it stops.
With only 4 weeks wty left i'd be getting things on paper if i was you - as in getting the dealership to acknowldge the noise.
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pilgrim1400
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
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posted July 21, 2008 01:47 AM
I'm in NE Vic. The bike was cleaned and put away after a 6,500k trip and sat for 5 weeks. It ran perfectly the whole time away. I booked it in to have the frame checked after getting the letter, and when I turned the key it made a VERY loud hammering noise, and seemed to be missing. A very rapid shutdown and a phone call to my mechanic, not the dealer,(thats another story) and the bike was loaded into a ute and taken to the dealer for warranty claim. The noise was like a piston hitting a stuck valve. A couple more trys at starting it and the noise level went down to a quiet knocking - tapping type noise and no miss. The temp at the time of initial startup was about 5c. The dealer started it cold a couple of days later and thought the noise was a big end. The sump was removed and the bearings checked, with no fault seen. The engine is being dismantled tomorrow by the dealer. Will keep you informed. There is no problem at the dealer end over warranty, just slow, and I have requested a new engine but no action there untill the pull down has happened, and the cause identifed. That's as at 5pm today.
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StrokedOutZX14
Novice Class
Saving for a turbo by tax time
Posts: 55
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posted July 21, 2008 11:30 AM
I wonder if the same problem is going on with the number 3 lubing problem like the zx12's. I read on a forum awhile back someone spun a number 3 bearing do to lack of lubrication?
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pilgrim1400
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
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posted July 22, 2008 01:26 AM
Hi Stroked, and every one else that has offered advice. As this is my first time in a forum, please forgive my manners, or lack of them. I havn't seen the bike since I dropped it of at the dealer over 2 weeks ago, but have kept in contact with them. The sump was removed about a week ago and the big ends checked, with no damage being observed. A phone call today and the engine is out head off and overhead gear checked. Still no obvious damage. However the piston tops carried a very heavy deposit of carbon, with some oiling being evedient, which seems very odd as I have not used the bike after a 6,500k trip. it used no oil for the trip, and returned 16k/litre (about 50 miles/gallon). Most of the trip was cruising at about 130-160kph. about 4-5000rpm. Has anyone seen this before????
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larryc
Novice Class
Posts: 43
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posted July 22, 2008 03:51 AM
Everyone has their own approach but here's what I would have done if I was the dealer.
1. Drain and strain the oil.
2. Inspect TBs to see if any screws missing or signs of foreign object pass through.
3. Leakdown test it.
4. If oil was clean & cylinder pressures good, install new cam chain tensioner. Those things can fail and make the motor knock.
5. If all the above checked out as OK, begin methodical tear down with close inspection.
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davej
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted July 22, 2008 03:21 PM
 Edited By: davej on 22 Jul 2008 16:22
Have you ruled out camchain? It can get pretty noisy, many times after running and restart I have to kill the engine and restart again. to reset the tensioner.
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blackbullet76
Pro
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posted July 23, 2008 09:53 AM
quote:
Have you ruled out camchain? It can get pretty noisy, many times after running and restart I have to kill the engine and restart again. to reset the tensioner.
Would you recommend a mechanical tensioner?
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obba
Expert Class
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posted July 23, 2008 02:41 PM
Pilgrim, I'm on the Gold Coast, so not much i can for you here with the local Kawa dealer.
But from the sounds of it, it looks like your ok with your dealer.
davej makes a good point though about the tensioner.
Good luck anyway, and let us all know what the outcome is.
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pilgrim1400
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
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posted July 24, 2008 11:34 PM
The problem has been found. The engine was stripped and everything measured. Number 4 big end is totaled. The others not bad, but number 3 was on the way. Put on your seat belt and I will give you the explanation as it was given to me.
Dirty fuel, a real problem in Aus I'm told, caused a carbon build up in the combustion chamber thus causing the piston to hit the head, peening the big end bearing at top dead centre. The carbon on top of the piston was about a mil thick, and similar on the head. You could see where it was hitting. The big noise came after it sat for 5 weeks in very cold temps, only 5c when it was started. When it warmed it was much quieter.
The realy good news is Kawasaki Aus it picking up the repair bill.
The prevention is to run a bottle of fuel system cleaner through the tank each service. I think I will be going a bit more often than that.
Can I have my old ZZR1100 back??????
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NOX
Needs a job
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posted July 25, 2008 05:55 AM
Well, at least you know it was not the oiling system.............
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ratbyk
Expert Class
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posted July 25, 2008 07:36 AM
Dirty fuel, a real problem in Aus I'm told, caused a carbon build up in the combustion chamber thus causing the piston to hit the head, peening the big end bearing at top dead centre. The carbon on top of the piston was about a mil thick, and similar on the head. You could see where it was hitting.
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I don't believe the explanation the dealer gave you!!
Excessive bearing clearance would allow the piston/rod assembly to travel farther up the cylinder. This is what was causing the piston to hit the head. Excessive carbon build up would always be squished away as the engine ran. There would not be enough of a build up carbon between the piston crown and the cylinder head to cause, "peening".
It was a bearing failure. Could be a lubrication problem/improperly torqued big end/crank or rod big end out of round.
A carbon build up is an excuse. The millions of times an hour that the piston passes over TDC will constantly keep the carbon "clearanced".
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ratbyk
Expert Class
Posts: 179
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posted July 25, 2008 12:21 PM
Further on your engine failure.
At the very least you need a fresh crank, a couple of rods, a piston or two. A set of rings and bearings. A new oil pump, (cuttings have passed through your existing pump) a set of gaskets, oil and a filter. Add this up plus about 30 hours labour and it will be a BIG bill. Almost close enough that Kawi would be wise in supplying you with a new engine. Just for the sake of customer relations.
I have been around for a looonnnng time. Repaired and modified so many engines that I can't even come close to remembering them all. The only time I have ever seen pistons strike the head (other than because of mis-assembly) is when there has been a rod bearing failure. The excess clearance at the bottom allows enough stretch that the piston to head clearance (deck height) disappears and the thunk, thunk starts.
Hope Kawi does it right for you and you start with a fresh one.
One last possibility (but no one will ever admit to it) Your, "mechanic" Did he service your bike when you returned from that long trip? It is possible that he dropped the oil, changed the filter and then something interrupted him. Phone call, coffee truck, needed a sh-t, whatever. He then started the engine with no oil in it. Heard it rattling but at first assumed that the filter was still filling itself and let it run for a bit. before shutting down. Maybe even revved it up a couple of times trying to make oil pressure. That is when the bearing failure started. The # 3 & 4 rod bearings would be the last to get oil pressure and by that time had scuffed up. We will never know and as I said, no one will ever admit to such a scenario.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
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posted July 25, 2008 02:42 PM
Working for Dealer for years i have seen and heard many carbon build up knocks .. It will knock just like a rod knock ... If left that way it will cause a rod bearing problem ..
We used a top cyl cleaner to remove the carbon ....You just slowly dumped the can of cleaner in the throttle bodys with the engine running and bye bye carbon ...
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pilgrim1400
Parking Attendant
Posts: 8
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posted July 25, 2008 07:55 PM
Ratbyke,
the bike was not touched after the trip, just left sitting. I find the carbon build very interesting, but at this stage my belief is "He who signs the cheque makes the rules", so I am not going to argue. I will post details of the rebuild when I have more info.
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nczx14
Expert Class
Posts: 108
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posted July 25, 2008 08:56 PM
Edited By: nczx14 on 25 Jul 2008 22:03
quote:
The millions of times an hour that the piston passes over TDC will constantly keep the carbon "clearanced".
I want to ask a question about this. If you turn the engine one revolution the piston would be at TDC 1 time per revolution? Is that correct? Which would be 2 strokes every revolution. 2 Revolutions would equal 4 strokes. Is that correct? If so, let's say that 11,000 rpms multiplied by 60 for the number of minutes in a hour that would be 660,000 passes over TDC not millions.
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
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posted July 26, 2008 05:32 AM
Sounds like they found the problem. Its more common on blue-printed engines because the Piston to Head clearanced is minimized for added chamber motion or squish.
This is a real problem with guys running tight, max power, street engines. They can tolerate very little carbon buildup before issues arise.
This is why most people wont run less than .040" squish for a street engine.
Anyway, make sure they check the rod cap alignment. Its a very often overlooked measurement that can mean life or death for a new set of rod bearings. !!!!
Hopefully they dont just use plastiguage and ship it. Plastiguage doesnt show shit except the top to bottom or 12 o clock and 6 o clock oil clearance on the bearings, which doesnt mean shit when a cap is misaligned and pinching at the parting seam.......
Good luck.
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