learning2race
Expert Class
Posts: 138
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posted July 16, 2008 09:35 AM
SB6 update/timing advance on stock motor
I've got the SB6 plugged in now, and trying to work through the software to actually make use of the unit. If my memory is correct, I seem to recall on a past post that the stock engine benefits from 4 degrees of timing advance - any feedback on this?
It would appear that I have the potential to program in timing advance for every 100 RPM - I'm thinking this may be a bit ambitious for me, so I'm going with 4 degrees (or whatever value members have had the most success with) across the entire RPM range.
With regards to the install....truely is plug-and-play. Only a few wires to connect to. I've got wire splices in for now until I'm convinced everything is connected properly then will solder. I haven't had enough opportunity to play with the unit yet to provide any meaningful imput......will do so at a later date. However, I do have some minor irritaiton over two issues.
First, a connection must be made to the gear shift switch. This connection functions much like a TRE in that it tricks the ECU into thinking you are in 6th gear in order to have the secondaries open up sooner - problem here is that like the TRE, your gauge display will always read 6th gear. My butterflies are removed so I removed thsi connection. Then I found out that if this connection is not made, you do not have that ability to make timing adjustments. So in order to have control over timing you have no choice but to have 6th gear permenantly displayed - a minor issue for sure, but being that this is the first bike I've owned with a gear indicator, I've grown used to it and miss the functionality.
Second, there is no manual that comes with the software. There is a "Help" section imbedded within the program, but I'm not finding it all that useful so far. I've followed the "Help" instructions last night in an attempt to set the launch limiter and the timing advance but had no success. I'm currently waiting to get a call back from MSD to have a representative give me a quick tutorial to at least get me up and running.
As I get further into programming the unit I'll provide additional feedback. I will also submit information on the built in adjustable RPM ignition kill but I'm not going to connect this to my airshifter until I can get a handle on how to make the software do what I want it to.
  
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learning2race
Expert Class
Posts: 138
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posted July 17, 2008 10:34 AM
Update:
Had a problem getting unit to recognize the clutch switch. I tapped into the solid black as per instructions, but once I swapped wires and problem solved.
I've now been able to successfully test the launch limter function. As a random RPM I set the limit at 4,000 RPM. Twisting the throttle to a maximum results in the tach reading a steady 4,000RPM. I'll be playng around with the shaft RPM setting tonight which I believe allows me to partially engage the clutch without the launch limiter shutting off. This weekend I'll connect the air shifter see how that functions.
Further reading has me concerned about advancing +4 degrees on the timing - perhaps +2 is the limit. Still looking for some experienced feedback on this.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted July 17, 2008 01:42 PM
I can't tell you what a zx14 wants for timing but i can tell you what has worked for me in 35 years of tunning race cars ... I add a few Deg of timing in the lower gears and that helps 60 and 330 times on the track ... In the upper gears i pull a few Degs out and that helps the MPH .. If you can add 2 deg in first , second, third and then pull out 2 deg in 4th , 5th and 6th gear .. Let us know how it works out
Smokin..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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learning2race
Expert Class
Posts: 138
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posted July 17, 2008 01:54 PM
Thanks! The software will allow me to do that so I'll give feedback when I try that timing sequence. The track I attend is running pro events for the next couple weeks so I'll have to bide my time until the next street legal event.
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted July 17, 2008 02:50 PM
you will likely have to shim the clutch switch.
Until I shimmed the clutch lever switch, My MSD Launch limiter would not allow me to load the drive train without disabling the limiter, when the clutch was partially enguaged.
Thanks for Keeping us posted on the msd 6sb!
I have one in the garage too, I will be installing when the engine and turbo are bolted up!
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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learning2race
Expert Class
Posts: 138
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posted July 18, 2008 06:25 AM
Update on launch limiter:
Previously I reported success but I found out last night during a quick run around the neighbourhood that I was incorrect. I had set the limiter at 4,000 RPM and this still works fine. What I didn't expect was that this limit applied in every gear - it never turned off like a traditional limiter!
Ultimately this is my fault as I'm still trying to understand the software. What it appears to be is that the initial launch RPM must be set and then, through the software, plot a RPM curve over time until you reach max RPM. I'll reload this curve tonight and see what happens.
"Smokinzx14" - thanks again or the advice on timing. I was premature on my reply that I could perform the adjustment you suggested (advance timing for the first few gears then retard for the last). I can adjust timing, but it appears to only be over a given RPM range, not by gear selection. So my question to you then is..... would there be any benefit to advancing timing over a range of say 0 - 7,000 and then retarding for anything over that? Would playing with timing over a given RPM range still provide the bottom/top end benefits you were suggesting by setting timing to gearing?
So far I'm ambivalent about the unit. While it appears to have a wide range of control over a number of functions, it definitely does not have the simplicity of traditional units that you connected, set once then forgot about. My initial opinion is that if you are a professional tuner (or simply have a lot of time on your hands to tweek every function) you will love this. The weekend racer may wish to simply stay with the basic (but tried and true) units that have been in use for many years.
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Sticks_n_Stones
Needs a job
Posts: 3930
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posted July 18, 2008 09:20 AM
 Edited By: Sticks_n_Stones on 18 Jul 2008 10:20
agree with the add timing until 7K or so, then retard it. Tried and true for high rpm race cars, should be the same for bikes. On most race cars, its the 6000-6500 rpm point where you want the retard to start. On the smaller faster burning chambers of a bike I would "guess" 8K but could be wrong.
____________
'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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kingtramp
Expert Class
Posts: 121
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posted July 18, 2008 07:27 PM
learning2race PM sented hope that helps
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted July 18, 2008 07:54 PM
quote:
Update on launch limiter:
Previously I reported success but I found out last night during a quick run around the neighbourhood that I was incorrect. I had set the limiter at 4,000 RPM and this still works fine. What I didn't expect was that this limit applied in every gear - it never turned off like a traditional limiter!
Ultimately this is my fault as I'm still trying to understand the software. What it appears to be is that the initial launch RPM must be set and then, through the software, plot a RPM curve over time until you reach max RPM. I'll reload this curve tonight and see what happens.
"Smokinzx14" - thanks again or the advice on timing. I was premature on my reply that I could perform the adjustment you suggested (advance timing for the first few gears then retard for the last). I can adjust timing, but it appears to only be over a given RPM range, not by gear selection. So my question to you then is..... would there be any benefit to advancing timing over a range of say 0 - 7,000 and then retarding for anything over that? Would playing with timing over a given RPM range still provide the bottom/top end benefits you were suggesting by setting timing to gearing?
So far I'm ambivalent about the unit. While it appears to have a wide range of control over a number of functions, it definitely does not have the simplicity of traditional units that you connected, set once then forgot about. My initial opinion is that if you are a professional tuner (or simply have a lot of time on your hands to tweek every function) you will love this. The weekend racer may wish to simply stay with the basic (but tried and true) units that have been in use for many years.
Yes you could do the advance 2 Deg till 7 grand and then have it go back to stock numbers ... It should still pick up some mid range and leave the top end as factory .. Later you could pull out 2 on the top and see if it makes any changes in MPH ...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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learning2race
Expert Class
Posts: 138
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posted July 21, 2008 06:49 AM
I have spent a very frustrating weekend attempting to get this unit to perform the functions it is claimed to do. I will admit to not being the most patient person, but during Saturday and Sunday I invested over 10 hours of effort, a tank and a half of gas, and a 3.5 ounce bottle of CO2; this should show testament to my desire to prove the functionality of this product. Unfortunately, all I can report at this time is aggravation and disappointment. The following are my concerns.
The selector switch:
After downloading about 20-25 plots, the switch is already deteriorating. The plastic selector is not made of a robust material – it started to deform after only a few turns. I finally had to grind down a screwdriver to make a very small slot to fit inside the switch.
Rev launch limiter:
I performed the "click and drag" on the dot on the "0" line (the gradient on the extreme left). I set it a 4,000 RPM for no other reason than to pick a number. I then "added a dot" at the 12,400 RPM level 1.5 seconds later (the values at the top of the graph). The resulting graph starts at 4,000 and has a linear slope increasing to 12,400 1.5 seconds later. I saved and downloaded to the unit and went for a test run. I expected to hold RPM at 4,000, and then when the clutch was released have a steady increase in RPM/acceleration until max RPM was reached.
This failed.
The issue appears to be that the limiter never "turns off" after the launch. The limiter holds the RPM at 4,000 like expected, however when the clutch is engaged, the RPM inevitably drops slightly. Due to this drop, the limiter appears to think I've never launched and I am stuck at 4,000 no matter what gear I shift into. I attempted numerous variations on the technique noted above, but could never get the bike to go beyond the initial RPM set point (even when I dumped the clutch hoping to not have a significant drop in launch RPM).
Output shaft RPM:
I made various settings from “0” to “500” on this option in the hope it may have some effect on the function of the launch limiter – it didn’t.
RPM shift points:
The software gives the impression that it is “smart-ware” in being able to determine a specific RPM for a specific gear shift. This does not appear to be the case. Exactly like the rev launch limiter, whenever a shift occurs, there is a drop in RPM. The unit will then continue to shift at the initial shift point, no matter what values have been programmed beyond it. I attempted to have shifts occur at different a RPM point with the gear selector wire splice in place and removed. Neither case made a difference as the unit would continue to only shift at the first programmed RPM point.
I have made no attempts to adjust the timing curve, nor have I attempted to use the data-logging function, so I have no comments about these features as of yet.
At this point, I can not recommend this product to anyone else – further, I won’t even sell the unit I have to anyone as my conscience will not allow me to induce this level of frustration on another person. I am not one to give up though, and I truly wish to see this product perform the functions it is claimed to do – precisely why I chose to purchase it. I am requesting a representative of MSD or any of the companies/racers who were contracted to test this unit to contact me by telephone on a weekday evening or weekend, so that I may have the bike and my laptop available to walk through programming each of the functions. Should anyone contact me and, through their assistance, prove the functionality of the unit, I will be more than happy to retract any/all of my comments. I am sending a copy of this post directly to MSD immediately after posting here.
Finally thanks to those who have sent me PM's offering their advice - any assistance at this point is greatly apprecicated.
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kingtramp
Expert Class
Posts: 121
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posted July 21, 2008 09:16 PM
At the clutch switch there is blk/red wire & blk wire . You what to splice blue wire of SB6 into black wire of clutch. Is this the way you are set up.? From looking a shematic if SB6 blue wire is tap into blk/red at clutch switch, 2 step is hot all the time ,will never shut off.
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learning2race
Expert Class
Posts: 138
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posted July 22, 2008 07:18 AM
A direct quote from the message I emailed to the Supervisor of the employees at MSD I was working with yesterday........
"What a difference a day makes. Within 10 minutes of posting my concerns, Ray (technical support at MSD) contacted me and arrangements were made to telephone me later at home in order to work through the issues I was concerned with. Ray and Eitan (the engineer who designed the unit) were both on the line when I received their call at home later that day.
In order of my concerns:
Launch limiter function: as expressed, the limiter would not turn off, and further the RPM limit stayed in place throughout the entire gear range. SOLUTION: I have a faulty clutch switch. Well, not “faulty” in that it doesn’t work, but “faulty” in that the colour coded wiring is not to factory specifications. The instructions that come with the unit require the SB6 clutch input wire to be connected to the solid black wire at the clutch switch (the other wire being a striped black wire). It appears that, when the wiring was installed to the clutch switch on my bike, these two wires were reversed. Ultimately this resulted in the SB6 not being able to determine that the clutch had been engaged, thereby never turning off the launch limited RPM. (NOTE: This wiring was initially a problem for me (note a previously posted message) but I had removed/replaced the connection back to the solid black in order to have the installation as per instructions for Ray and Eitan to diagnose.)
Shaft RPM output: Adjusting this throughout its entire range had no effect at all. SOLUTION: this was my fault entirely. By asking me to start and run the bike in gear (with my laptop connected to display the monitoring functions), Ray and Eitan were instantly able to recognize the problem when one of the software monitors showed no shaft output RPM. I was directed to check the wire connection that is part of the installation of the unit. When I disassembled the wire splice I had put in place, I saw that, although the splice had pierced the protective layer, it was off center. When I repositioned the wire within the splice and made the connection again, a subsequent test now registered a positive shaft output RPM in the software monitor.
Gear shift RPM level: I could not get the unit to shift at any RPM above the initial RPM programmed at the 1st shift point. SOLUTION: I believe this was issue was created by a combination of the two previously noted problems.
My last correspondence expressed the concern and frustration I was having with not being able to get the unit to perform the functions it claimed – at the very least I though I had been sold a defective unit. Ultimately that emotional charge caused me to loose perspective and I focussed solely on the software side, and neglected to investigate the hardware. Perhaps at some point I may have discovered the poorly connected splice, but in the state of mind I was in as of yesterday, it’s more realistic to believe I would have pulled the unit from my bike and made attempts at getting a refund. My gratitude for the support provided by Ray and is without bounds.
As of my last message, I officially retract any/all of my comments regarding the functionality of the unit. I can state that the three functions of concern work exactly as expected during test runs around my neighbourhood last night – once I get back to the racetrack I will test the other functions. Further I would like to express my thanks for the service I received; initially by Ray (who answered my questions when I was working through the software) and then to both Ray and Eitan for ultimately alleviating my issues. Far too often, once the money has exchanged hands, the consumer is left without recourse should the product turn out to be faulty (or in this case, perceived to be). I am extremely pleased to discover that your company is prepared to provide the post-sale service that is sorely lacking in the big-box retail environment we live in."
I have made use of a public forum to express my concerns about a product I did not believe functioned as advertised. I am now making use of the same forum to state that I was wrong - the product does work and I will be happy to now post future correspondance discussing the successes I foresee occurring. Further, should anyone else purchase this product, please feel free to message me here and I will be glad to help assist in any way I can.
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LeonidasZX14
Pro
Posts: 1277
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posted December 07, 2010 05:52 PM
Nice write up and if you are still a member please post up as I have a few questions.
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09' ZX14
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Learning2race
Expert Class
Posts: 138
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posted December 07, 2010 06:15 PM
Yes still a member and yes, unit is still on the bike. Unfortunately the motor blew up midway through the summer, so I haven't run the bike in quite some time. I can provide feedback on what I did with the unit, but I can't honestly say that I spent enough time with it to truly understand all of its capabilities
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LeonidasZX14
Pro
Posts: 1277
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posted December 07, 2010 06:21 PM
I will pull the instructions tomorrow. Were you using it as shift kill?
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09' ZX14
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Learning2race
Expert Class
Posts: 138
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posted December 07, 2010 10:32 PM
Yes. I purchased it as a set with a MPS Racing auto-shift box. I set launch RPM, adjusted the kill time within the SB6 along with the RPM I wanted it to shift at then let it do its thing.
Where I found it most useful was playing with ignition curves. By making adjustment to the speed/linearity of attaining max RPM, I was getting very close to being able to line up at 7,000 RPM and just dump the clutch. The ignition curves I was playing with allowed me to leave with no wheel spin and get quickly to max RMP again without blowing out the tire
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LeonidasZX14
Pro
Posts: 1277
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posted December 08, 2010 04:32 AM
Is there any way to do away with the MPS all together? I have the same box but I'm trying to do away with it if possible.
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09' ZX14
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06redzx14
Pro
Posts: 1022
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posted December 08, 2010 07:20 AM
http://www.psychobike.com/forums/kawasaki-zx12r-zx14/61845-sb6-shifter-question.html
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06 alien head, no flies, PC+hub, 16/45 44 43, air shifter, dry shot
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RICH CRAFT 1
Zone Head
Posts: 681
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posted December 08, 2010 10:51 AM
If you are using MPS auto shift box it won't work with the SB6. But MPS sales a box I think it's in the $150 range? It works a lot better than their regular auto shift box. There is no backfiring in between gears with or without nitrous. The only drawback is it comes with a switch to turn it off and on if you don't turn it off after every run or before you turn the key back on it will bang the air shifter. The SB 6 uses the shift light wire when you turn the key on it runs through all the cycles it will send a signal to your air shifter to shift. The good news is MPS sales another box that fixes that LOL I didn't buy that I just turn it off. The SB6 is a box that I would not take for and is worth every penny. It and a wego-3 air fuel and you can do anything you want! And be for sure about what you're doing. If you have any questions I've had mine for two years. Ken
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Red 06 ZX14 RR
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mathews
Expert Class
Posts: 425
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posted December 08, 2010 11:24 AM
Hey Ken,you coming to Houston for the MLK race?
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RICH CRAFT 1
Zone Head
Posts: 681
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posted December 08, 2010 11:47 AM
quote:
Hey Ken,you coming to Houston for the MLK race?
I would like to but right now my bike is broken and we are running my sons 14 I can never tell about him on anything over three days out LOL but we are down a couple of races to Houston and need to repay. I will probably know the week before. Ken
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Red 06 ZX14 RR
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northernkaw
Expert Class
Posts: 215
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posted December 09, 2010 07:05 PM
you should not need the mps box for auto shift the sb6 will do that through the shift light. I use the hub to command the shift just for the fact I can set the throttle position it happens at. if you set it at 60% tps it wont command a shift below that. its good if you get loose and back out of the throttle it will stop the next shift.I have the sb6 and RAY was very helpfull with my problems and they where my problems.
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LeonidasZX14
Pro
Posts: 1277
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posted December 10, 2010 08:53 AM
So do I hook the shift light wire to the horn button which will then kill the engine? What engages the shift solenoid? Or do I wire both to the horn. I want to eliminate the MPS box all together.
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09' ZX14
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LeonidasZX14
Pro
Posts: 1277
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posted December 10, 2010 08:53 AM
So do I hook the shift light wire to the horn button which will then kill the engine? What engages the shift solenoid? Or do I wire both to the horn. I want to eliminate the MPS box all together.
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09' ZX14
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RICH CRAFT 1
Zone Head
Posts: 681
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posted December 10, 2010 09:50 AM
If I was you I would call Ray at MSD 1-888-2583835 he's a very nice guy and can help you with anything you need to know about the SB6.
Ken
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Red 06 ZX14 RR
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