Rideharder
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posted March 12, 2008 08:58 PM
 Edited By: Rideharder on 12 Mar 2008 22:04
CompetitionCNC ZX14 head development
Whats up with the CompetitionCNC ZX14 head development for the ZX14?
   
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 13, 2008 03:34 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 13 Mar 2008 04:36
We have done a dozen or so to this point and tested with stock cams. (over 200 std RWHP)
Now were going to test with bigger cams and see what its true potential is. The zx14 cams are holding the engine back. At that point we will reevaluate the ports and make any needed changes to match the bigger cams.
Its a constant ongoing proccess that never really ends as different bore/strokes and cam grinds are tested.
We are looking at cam and port designs for the 1530/1587 combos now. Thats the cc range where a better port design will be mandatory to make use of big cams and make big power numbers.
It just seems that many people are shying away from boring the zx14. I guess due to the added cost of disassembly to bore and replate. Kawi made a huge mistake making the block part of the crankcase. They just dont care about anything after the bike leaves the dealership I guess. I think that factor alone will sway many people to the busa who are on the fence at the time of purchase. Such a shame, its a huge marketing mistake.
Anyway, I'd recomend bigger cams with the ported head. They complement each other and bigger cams are much needed. I'll be posting some results with bigger cams coming up.
Muzzys has billet cams for the zx14.
Or call WebCams, they will weld your cams.
Megacycle flat out refused to weld zx14 cams for us or anyone else!!! They will ONLY do billet zx14 cams. They claim they are too thin and warp badly and need to be straighened. But most hard weld faced cams warp and need straightening anyway so.....???
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Y2KZX12R
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87gtNOS
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posted March 13, 2008 05:34 PM
Would there be any benefit to a mild port job combined with some added compression and CAMS from Muzzy? Would that net 200rwhp?
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 13, 2008 05:46 PM
We are seeing 202 std hp with mr9 fuel and a ported, milled head. We will know soon, but I suspect we should see 210-214 hp for the same combo with cams.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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87gtNOS
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posted March 13, 2008 05:49 PM
Why do you need the MR9? Can this be achieved with 91 Octane for everyday street riding? OR is it that you have a lot of compression (tighter cc, not compression as a result of the cam timing) in there?
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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zx14mike
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posted March 13, 2008 07:04 PM
I know you would prefer hard facts to speculation, but do you expect to lose a noticable amout of lowend power and torque with cams and a ported head?
Also, when you say the stock cams limit the 14's potential, what exactly are you refering to, are they lowend and midrange torque cams........they certainly feel less radical and more torquey than the ZX 12 cams is this the case......the zx 12 made peak right at the limiter at like 12000 i believe while the 14 feels like it flattens out and peaks around 10,000 or so.
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dubious
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posted March 14, 2008 04:29 AM
yes , the 14 cams have less duration than the zx12 cams do, for their respective displacement....
I think many street riders will be dissapointed with the low end power loss, from more duration and stock displacement.....
Those going with cams and stock displacement will definately be bettre off with more compression too.
Porting and compression increase with pipe and flies out would probably be the limit for me naturally aspirated on the street as a daily driver.....
low maintenance , reliable, fat torque curve, good fuel mileage.... etc
Maybe i am wrong about the 14....
but I have had radical cams installed in a few of my cars, trucks and bikes, and bottom end is always traded for more top, compression helps ease that somewhat ....
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zx14mike
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posted March 14, 2008 05:54 AM
Thanks dubious!
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thutch26
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thutch26
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posted March 14, 2008 08:00 AM
Coby Adams told me that they run stock cams in their 14's cause they can't keep a set of buckets in the head? not sure what that means but I guess this happening with their nos motors since they hadn't built their turbo at this time... I just had a 2mill built with a Coby head along with alot of other stuff from top to bottom and my builder suggested I run stock cams just for this reason.? I will be spraying this motor prob 75-80+hp dry.. what do you guys think? cams or not?
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Gettin faster everytime I go to the track!!!
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dubious
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posted March 14, 2008 09:34 AM
thutch26 you have a pm.
there are ways around that, but the entire valvtrain must changed!
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 14, 2008 04:47 PM
The mr9 fuel is used because it makes more power than pump fuel. Its worth about 8 or so hp over pump fuel. And as drag racers they dont use a lot of fuel so its afordable. You wouldnt want to go street riding running mr9, you would go broke.
The 14 cams are smaller than the zx12r cams and are designed for more midrange and low end power. With bigger cams you may loose some midrange power but if you are doing other mods to go with it (as you should) you shouldnt have a net loss of power in the mid range.
The zx14 has the same small buckets, 26mm that the zx12r has. This limits the size of the cams you can run before you overrun the edge of the buckets. Over running the buckets causes accelerated cam and bucket wear.
But the good news is that the busa buckets (28mm) can be put in a zx12r or zx14 head if you have the head bored to accept them.
One thing to note about these sport bike heads in stock form, they are on the verge of going into sonic choke at high rpm, or actually do go into sonic choke.
The zrx head is a prime example, its air velocity is 333 fps at 28" of test pressure. 330 fps on a flow bench at 28" of depression translates into sonic choke on a running engine.
A stock zx12r is 330 fps.
The factories do this because the cams run out of area under the curve anyway to make hp above the designed hp peak. So by designing the cams to max out at peak hp rpms and keeping the ports small to the point of reaching sonic choke right at the designed peak hp rpm, it gives the engine a broader useable power band at the cost of some peak hp.
So by porting the head and adding bigger cams you can fill the cylinders better by staying out of sonic choke untill a higher rpm. Of course as you increase the displacement of the engine you start to raise the port velocity again for any given rpm. So the trick is to port the head to match the displacement and where you want the peak hp to be and then match the cams to that.
These arnt your fathers oldsmobile engines... 
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Y2KZX12R
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Rideharder
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posted March 14, 2008 06:38 PM
Thank you very much for all the information...
I am deathly going to be dumping a lot of money into the motorcycle in the next six months...
Just trying to figure out where I would have a better advantage in top performance....
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dubious
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posted March 14, 2008 07:43 PM
y2kzx12r:
how does this translate with turbo applications, will ports which are pressureized run into sonic choke as well?
I am considering porting the head, since I want to start with a fresh top end, and head assembly, new valve guides, seals, seats etc along with a fresh bottom end.
Mnay have said not to waste my time, just turn up boost, but i can't help but think the turbo will be more efficient, spool faster, less heat soak, generally just more efficient with a ported head.
Will I see measureable differences with ported head on turbo application with the zx14?
Do you have experience with turbo applications?
Maybe it would be easier if I just called you.
what would be best time to reach you for input in this application?
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insight!
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natural selection.....
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Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 15, 2008 05:14 AM
With turbos the bottleneck becomes the exhaust valve and port not so much the intake side of things. Typically the exhaust temps rise as boost rises and this causes several problems and increases the potential for a failure. Simply adding boost gives diminishing returns while overloading the stock components. Without increasing durability is a straight line to a major failure, usually valve failures.
The more boost you feed the engine the less ignition timing advance is desired because of the increase of the rate of the cylinder pressure rise after normal ignition starts. This causes higher exhaust gas temps for two reasons. first you are putting more burnable mixture in the cylinder, and two you are lighting it later giving it less time to burn completely before the exhaust valve opens. this translates into higher gas temps and speeds. As you add boost the problem gets worse.
The exhaust valves need wider seat contact areas with ampco45 bronz seats and should have bronz guides. This will help keep the exhaust valves from overheating especially on a bike designed for top speed runs where it will be at max boost and power for a long time.
So with that said, there are ways to combat this. Putting in larger exhaust valves and porting will reduce the gas speeds during blowdown and help reduce EGT this will reduce pumping losses and in some (most) cases reduce turbo lag. Your exhaust valves will last a lot longer by staying cooler. But you still should replace the exhaust valves regularly. In a high hp turbo application they go thru extreme heat cycles and this changes the grain structure and will lead to failure. Its one of those "when" not "if" deals. In a high HP turbo application exhaust valves are like clutch frictions, replace them regularly depending on useage. Or you can have some special valve made to withstand the punishment longer but for the cost its cheeper to replace them more often.
Theres no one answer, it all depends on useage and power level. And how long you will be at max power levels.
Yes, I've done heads specifically for turbo busas but not zx14's yet.
Give me a call if you like, its hard to generalize with an application like this.
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Y2KZX12R
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dubious
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posted March 15, 2008 05:33 AM
Will do,
Thank you very very much.
I am new to turbo applications...
I knew that there is alot more going on there than just " pour more coals to it"!
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natural selection.....
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Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Silver08
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posted March 15, 2008 03:18 PM
so you will have a port design in the future for a muzzy 1530/ muzzy cam setup?
if so, when do you anticipate having numbers from it?
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08 ZX14
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 16, 2008 10:41 AM
quote:
so you will have a port design in the future for a muzzy 1530/ muzzy cam setup?
if so, when do you anticipate having numbers from it?
Yes, we are going to get to a stage 2 zx14 port soon.
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Y2KZX12R
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Silver08
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posted March 16, 2008 06:27 PM
Will you be using all Muzzy parts for this?
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08 ZX14
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 17, 2008 04:00 AM
Yes, we are going to base the stage 2 on the Muzzy 1530 with Muzzy's cams.
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Y2KZX12R
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larryc
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posted March 17, 2008 06:07 AM
Great thread with some excellent information.
Modern 4 Valve motorcycle heads come from the factory with more than adequate air flow for their intended design purpose. The ZX14 is another example of just such a situation.
There's a big debate these days on mean air speed. The air speed Y2K mentions is relative to steady sate testing on the flowbench. It's all about pumping losses. Velocity can be a calculated value for an overall mean port velocity but the best way to see what's happening is the port is through use of a pitot tube. You'll get a far more accurate picture of potential trouble spots.
Velocity is important to any cylinderhead and yes, you can have too much of it but that's not the whole story or the bottom line either.
The fact that Kawasaki chose the integrated block arrangement is a double edge sword. From an engineering view point, it's a far better choice than the old way. From an aftermarket parts sellers perspective or a customer's wallet perspective, it's a door slammed in the face.
Even though I personally think the ZX14 has it all over the Busa in many categories, there's an undeniable trend that Kawasaki seems to be grooved in and won't flex from. They make a killer engine, always have. Suzuki though, tends to give the general masses more of what they want...........A good base bike with room for improvements with less expense involved.
Lets crunch some numbers and take the information regarding the valve bucket & cam situation into the picture.
Using the stock engine specs for valve size, cams, compression, flow.....
Stock ZX14 head @28" [From published numbers a while back] This would not be with the FULL INTAKE SYSTEM IN PLACE. There would be losses from full system testing.
.300" lift - 194CFM
.400" lift - 213CFM
Stock Advertised HP @ crank - 190 -9500 RPM
Brock's Performance Tested HP - 163 @9500 ---Torque 98.66Ft/lbs [89 Octane pump gas]
Now, using some math, let's take a look at some numbers. [won't be dead nuts1 to 1]
82.526 Cubic Inches @ 9500 RPM with 111.0 % Volumetric Efficiency PerCent
Required Intake Flow between 164.2 CFM and 172.8 CFM at 28 Inches
600 RPM/Sec Dyno Test
Lowest Low Average Best
Peak HP 175.9 183.2 186.8 190.4
Peak Tq. 105.3 109.7 111.8 114.0
HP/ CID 2.132 2.220 2.263 2.307
Tq/ Cu.In 1.276 1.329 1.355 1.381
BMEP 192.5 200.4 204.3 208.3
Lets use 15% for drive line losses and look at the BEST value calculations
HP - 190.4 -15% = 161.84
Tq - 114.0 -15% = 96.90
What's interesting here is the required flow [164.2 CFM to 172.8 CFM at 28 Inches]
From Brocks tuning efforts [what a guy!] and a good hard break in process plus MR9 fuel, he coaxes 195HP & 116 Ft.Lbs out of the bike with a stock head.
Ok....so what's the point in all these numbers and comparisons?
It goes back to Y2K's mentioning of the port air speed. It's possible to gain performance without big increases in CFM. The engine doesn't always need more CFM but it will always need a minimal amount at the correct rate of speed.
Furthermore, if the 202HP is yielded on pump gas, that's a good head!
Keep up the nice work Y2k....I like how you approach the performance business!
Best Regards,
Larry C
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kspz3
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posted March 18, 2008 03:58 PM
Mine will be shipped to Brian this week to do the Competition heads with Cam set-up and other related magic. I am looking forward to seeing how this all plays out. I am very impressed with Quantum and I have allot of confidence that between him and CompetitionCNC that we will have a hot set-up when all is said and done.
Kevin
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Silver08
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posted March 18, 2008 07:14 PM
I'm still waiting to see how a 1530 holds up on the street.
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08 ZX14
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Y2KZX12R
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posted March 19, 2008 02:53 AM
Kevin, are you going to run Web Cams "special" zx14 grind?
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Y2KZX12R
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kspz3
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posted March 19, 2008 03:02 PM
quote:
Kevin, are you going to run Web Cams "special" zx14 grind?
I am relying on Brian for selecting the right components. I believe the cams are in the works. Between the two of you - there seems to be allot of knowledge - and I am hoping that this effort will pay off nicely. I play at the track, Maxton and Bonneville - besides normal street riding for required seat time.
Kevin
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Silver08
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posted March 19, 2008 06:10 PM
kspz, If you would like to share, how much $$$ are you looking at, and whats the basics of your setup. If you dont want to share i completely understand.
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08 ZX14
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