NinjaNick
Needs a job
'08 ZX14 (Blue)
Posts: 4558
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posted November 30, 2007 12:20 PM
 Edited By: NinjaNick on 30 Nov 2007 12:55
Is the Muzzy 1530 kit it?
Is that the only kit available for the 14?
Also, I'm curious...
Do these engines with this done last as long.
  
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JamesE
Novice Class
Posts: 32
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posted November 30, 2007 04:50 PM
I spoke to three different engine builders, and they don't recommend it. The crank is of particular concern to them. However, if ur willing to pay, they'll install anything you want.
I got the same response from all the guys. Cams, sprockets, +2 JE's, porting to match makes a nice street motor.
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07 Plasma Blue ZX 14 Flies out Tsukigi slip-ons, PCIII, -2" rear
-1" frt, Heli's, Scorpio SR500i equipped
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fastest-14
Expert Class
Fastest -14
Posts: 354
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posted November 30, 2007 06:10 PM
NinjaNick: In regards to this 1530 kit, it is both bored 2mm and stroked 5mm. If this is just going to be a track bike and you are already good at utilizing all the power of a stock 14 as far as putting the power to the ground, then by all means get this kit. You'll have more power and torque than you'll ever need. I have already posted a similar response to this particular setup on an earlier thread. The problem that you run into when stroking a motor is that the increased speed of the bearing and pistons can and will eventually create a problem down the road for you with bearings getting spun, especially if you are still going to ride this bike on the street. Stroking just causes too much stress on the crank. Sure, you will gain a ton of torque down low but not for a price along with the added risk.
One first hand example of this is a friend of mines on a Gsrx 1000, whom I had done a couple of 2nd gear roll ons with in the past. He had went and got his engine stroked 4mm. Anyway, all I can say is that he was pulling better with the stroked crank than he was the first couple of times I raced him. I noticed that after I had gotten about 30, 40 yards ahead of him, he started pulling over to the side of the road. Come to find out he had spun a bearing as a result of the stroker crank. Now he's got to drop the motor and tear it back down again.
Muzzy offers the piston alone without the crank. Muzzy will not gaurantee anything regarding using this 1530 kit on the street. They'd be crazy to. It's strickly a race bike application.
My personal advice to anyone. If you want a little more power and torque and you are going to be riding it on the street, do the head work and maybe the pistons but stay away from the crank.
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NinjaNick
Needs a job
'08 ZX14 (Blue)
Posts: 4558
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posted November 30, 2007 06:13 PM
Awesome info! Thanks. 
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Silver08
Expert Class
Posts: 461
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posted November 30, 2007 09:21 PM
what kinda power and E.T. /MPH are people doing with +2mm/Head and cam 14's???
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08 ZX14
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NinjaNick
Needs a job
'08 ZX14 (Blue)
Posts: 4558
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posted November 30, 2007 09:45 PM
muzzys.com claims 240hp. Check it out on their site.
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ZXLNT
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted December 01, 2007 04:59 AM
Fastest he didn't spin a bearing as a result of the crank. He probably spun a bearing due to improper engine assembly. Stroker cranks dont automatically spin bearings. Improper assembly spins bearings..
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NinjaNick
Needs a job
'08 ZX14 (Blue)
Posts: 4558
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posted December 01, 2007 05:28 AM
So, you're saying ZXLNT, that a kit like this will cause no issues when properly done?
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THE ICE MAN
Expert Class
Posts: 195
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posted December 01, 2007 06:07 AM
The stroker crank is harder on bearings than a non stroker.
I am replacing the bearings in our race bike 1507cc Busa only after
60 passes running the 1 mile run between Maxton and the 9/10th's.
I am going to check them now to see how much wear is taking place
may be very minimal but have to be safe, and give me a good idea
when to change them next time.
Our bike has only been used for racing at WOT throttle, if a stroker is used for
street riding and bike nights I would still check after a reasonable amount of time
depending on how you ride your bike.
1/4 mile strokers are recomended to check bearing or replace after 150 passes.
Sal.
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ACE PERFORMANCE.COM
40 Records@ Maxton, Fastest NA
1507cc Busa 223.330 MPH also
Fastest ZX12 N.A.212.846 MPH in
the mile Fastest 1000 750 @ Maxton
& Fastest 600 N.A. in the world.
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NinjaNick
Needs a job
'08 ZX14 (Blue)
Posts: 4558
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posted December 01, 2007 08:38 AM
Thanks for your input Ice Man; much appreciated.
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ZXLNT
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted December 01, 2007 10:18 AM
quote:
So, you're saying ZXLNT, that a kit like this will cause no issues when properly done?
I'm not saying there will be NO issues when buidling non stock spec motor. I'm sayiing alot of issues on stroker engines come from improper assembly and care when building the engine... Anytime you start changing an engine away from its original specicifations there are going to be issues. How many and what they are depend on your level of care and knowledge when building the engine..
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Silver08
Expert Class
Posts: 461
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posted December 01, 2007 03:41 PM
from the people i have talked to, i wouldnt do more than a +2mm overbore, and stock crank in a 14 I was going to ride on the street a good bit. Every engine builder i have talked to says not to run a stroker crank on a street bike. too much stress on the bearing.
yes you could do it, but is it worth the risk and potential $$$ to fix it?
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08 ZX14
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Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted December 01, 2007 04:02 PM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 1 Dec 2007 16:15
quote:
Fastest he didn't spin a bearing as a result of the crank. He probably spun a bearing due to improper engine assembly. Stroker cranks dont automatically spin bearings. Improper assembly spins bearings..
+1
Its all about the details of assembly. A stroker motor is harder on the piston skirts and they wear out quicker due to the rod angle differences and excessive chamfer at the bottom of the bore, but any bearing issues have nothing to do with the fact that the stroke is longer or that the crank was welded. I guess if you were turboing the bike and making 500hp there may be stress concerns with a welded crank possably having internal flaws etc. but thats not a common concern for most people.
Improper assembly is whats killing these strokers. If anyone putting an engine together uses plastiguage they deserve to spin a bearing.
You need to measure the rod big end (with the bearing in and the bolts torqued) for roundness. The caps get misaligned quite often and the bearings pinch on the sides and then they get hot and then they spin. Its very common.
If youre going to do a stroker be very selective who you have build the engine. It makes all the difference in the world.
I have over 7000 very hard miles on a 1375 zx12r. It gets hammered the whole time I ride it and I had it apart recently and the bearings are like new still.
The skirts on the other hand are worn quite a bit where they come down out of the bore at the bottom of the stroke. Millenium tends to chamfer the bottom of the bore a little too much and this reduces the skirt support at BDC. They do this to aide in installing the pistons, it makes it easier but at the cost of skirt support.
If you have them bore and replate the cylinder ask them not to touch the bottom of the bore at all even after rebore. You will gain about .040" or so more very needed skirt support.
Good luck.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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THE ICE MAN
Expert Class
Posts: 195
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posted December 01, 2007 08:10 PM
Edited By: THE ICE MAN on 1 Dec 2007 20:12
Any time the stroke is increased, there is an increase in inertial loads.
When stroke is increased by 10 percent, the reciprocating loads will, at any given rpm, go up by 10 percent.
If the engine is turned at 10 percent higher rpm, the reciprocating forces go up by 21 percent (1.1x 1.1 = 1.21).
You cannot argue physics
What I did to make it as safe as I possible can ?
I line bored my cases and added a higher volume oil gear and raised the oil pressure
used appropriate bearings.
Which bike is more reliable ? bikes with stock stroke crank or stroked crank I wil put my money on the stock crank everytime !
Sal.
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ACE PERFORMANCE.COM
40 Records@ Maxton, Fastest NA
1507cc Busa 223.330 MPH also
Fastest ZX12 N.A.212.846 MPH in
the mile Fastest 1000 750 @ Maxton
& Fastest 600 N.A. in the world.
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted December 01, 2007 08:10 PM
Man, I might freight my entire engine to ya! LOL
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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fastest-14
Expert Class
Fastest -14
Posts: 354
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posted December 02, 2007 07:48 PM
quote:
Fastest he didn't spin a bearing as a result of the crank. He probably spun a bearing due to improper engine assembly. Stroker cranks dont automatically spin bearings. Improper assembly spins bearings..
ZXLNT, that could possibly be the case in some situations when an inadequate builder attempts to build or assemble an engine. That's why anyone should be very selective in who they choose to build their bikes. From a general standpoint, with the engine assembled properly, etc, etc, any top builder worth his weight in wrenches, ratchets or any other tool available will advise against using a stroker motor as a street bike. Too many things can go wrong involving the crank. A billet crank would be better because of no concerns with the welds but the other problems still exist even with a billet crank and besides, who can afford them? They are very pricey. Most stroked cranks that are available to the public and installed are welded. Welded cranks are weaker because of the welds. Billet anything is always better than welded but much more expensive. Call any top builder, from Lee to Carpenter to RC to Orient Express and the first thing they will ask you is "what are you using the motor for". The moment you mention street riding, they advise against stroking, for obvious reasons. Now, will they build it for you if you insist, sure they will, it's your money. Will Muzzy sell a stroker crank kit to you for street use, sure they will. Now if you are going to be dragracing on the track, the motor is going to be torn down every so often anyway or at least it should be. That's what you need to do with race engines for preventive maint.
Bottom line, stroker cranks aren't made to hold up on the street and endure the mileage that is going to be placed on a street bike engine. It is simply meant for the track. Can someone have a stroker motor and not run into problems on the street? Sure anything's possible but the likelihood of not having problems on the street with this type of mod is unlikely.
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Silver08
Expert Class
Posts: 461
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posted December 02, 2007 08:08 PM
once i see what the 08 "stock motor" will do, I might break the piggy bank and see what an 08 carpenter 1417 can do
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08 ZX14
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BlackMagic14
Needs a job
Posts: 2058
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posted December 02, 2007 09:37 PM
As far as street bikes go I wouldnt even do the 1417 everyone I have talked to says that bitch runs HOT!!!! If you are considering any over bore make sure you have a second fan installed as well I had the head milled ported and polished and the cams degreed and my bike makes over 205hp on every dyno it has been on. A little over 260 oin the nitrous and I can ride it all day everyday. Also the 14 LOVES advanced timing we picked up as much as 7 hp over the aforementioned 205 just playing with timing.
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chunter
Expert Class
Posts: 195
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posted December 03, 2007 04:17 AM
It's the assembly. Never spun or even had strange wear on my 4mm stroker crank in my 14. There are a ton of busa's running around locally too with thousands of street miles on em with stroker cranks.
stroked cranks spin bearings is a myth....
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Silver08
Expert Class
Posts: 461
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posted December 03, 2007 08:44 AM
as far as running hot, has anyone ever checked the real temp on a 14 when it's 5 or 6 bars, I wonder if its just calibrated to read that way, but its not really that hot?
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08 ZX14
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fastest-14
Expert Class
Fastest -14
Posts: 354
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posted December 03, 2007 09:18 AM
quote:
as far as running hot, has anyone ever checked the real temp on a 14 when it's 5 or 6 bars, I wonder if its just calibrated to read that way, but its not really that hot?
I have been thinking the same thing, Silver08. I believe the bars are calibrated to read hotter than the bike temperature really is. Just my personal opinion.
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billeason
Zone Head
Posts: 711
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posted December 03, 2007 09:43 AM
We have an they run hot, Like magic said you better have a updated coolant system for the bore kits.Even then if you have humid summers like here in the mid atlantic 14s still run a little hot on the street. Cams/cams in the wright place/good port and bump in comp,and compatent tuner an you have 205-212 hp. This is a very good running 14 and basicly the dependabilaty of a stocker,better really with the better valve springs an small shot of spray. We ran 1 14 for two seasons set up this way and another one all this season with not one motor problem.I have the 06 running 8.60 167 with small shot but with lighter quicker rider i think its got two tenths in it.BTW its got 300 miles on it all dyno an drag strip! bill..
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bill eason
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Silver08
Expert Class
Posts: 461
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posted December 03, 2007 08:42 PM
so no one rides a overbored 14 on the street? (without overheating problems) this is kinda sad, my buddy rides his 1363 and before that 1397 busa on the street ALL DAY LONG and has no overheating issues. his 1363 is making ~215hp.
Is a concours radiator larger, and do you think it would bolt up? there has to be a way to make a 2mil 14 run cool enough for street use??
what are people doing for a 2nd fan?
Why do I need all this you may ask??
after riding a bike with 215whp that you can ride 150miles and take through traffic, i want one too, but i want to do it with a 14.
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08 ZX14
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Silver08
Expert Class
Posts: 461
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posted December 03, 2007 08:43 PM
Bill, where are you located?
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08 ZX14
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thutch26
Expert Class
thutch26
Posts: 483
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posted December 04, 2007 11:04 AM
i got a 2mil motor being built as we speak. i am told by the builder it will be streetable. but i guess we'll see... i have read about a 3mil kit on the street with a second fan and some water wetter... i personally am gonna try the ceramic coating on a new Tuskigi Sidewinder.. from what i hear this is supposed to help out alot! along with trying to mount a 2nd fan and some water wetter...... hope it works... the 14 runs hot as h$ll anyways.....
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Gettin faster everytime I go to the track!!!
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