ghostman
Expert Class
Posts: 456
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posted November 18, 2007 08:13 PM
BURN THE WITCH!!!!!!!!  . . . . . .. . . . . . . .OH 
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I'm There Whether You See Me Or Not.
  
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1BADZX12R
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted November 18, 2007 08:15 PM
quote:
Good info and ESPECIALLY that you guys found out that the '06 PC wouldn't work on the '08.
The Busa power commander (2007 GSXR1000 PC actually) plugged in just fine and all was well but for some reason the 2006 ZX-14 Power Commander caused the ZX-14 not to run at all
that just prove more BIAS cuz before the zx14 had it own pc3 we used the 06zx10 pc3...
so really it only proved them dude's couldn't install a pc3...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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lucky14
Pro
Posts: 1439
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posted November 18, 2007 08:28 PM
So the 14 has more torque up to 6000 rpm?
..........and the Busa has more peak HP?
If that's true, that's REAL role reversal!!
I think I'll wait to see what Brock says ......................... 
Not that it matters - the 08 14 is a KEEPER!
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You only need two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD-40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
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Wheelie
Needs a life
Old Man
Posts: 6902
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posted November 18, 2007 08:32 PM
I want to see the local race track dyno's for both bikes, (mph) real numbers, not happy dynos. drag strip mph is the true test, wee
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90vtwin
Parking Attendant
Posts: 18
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posted November 18, 2007 08:46 PM
Thank you for the number Bentley.
It is clear that before 8K RPMs they run the same (and have the same A/F ratio),
but after 8K the ZX-14 runs too rich, and Busa is running normal A/F ration.
That looks like where the difference is.
Are there ways to change the A/F ratio on ZX-14 without installing the commander?
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted November 18, 2007 08:58 PM
1bad -- you're out to fuckin' lunch dude. Bently's a stand-up guy. Stop badgering him with the havabusa.org shit. You know the facts are the fucking facts. It's also widely known that the 08 Busa has a higher peak HP output than the 08 14. Coupled with the fact that the A/F ratio shows a very rich condition at high RPM, which would certainly get another 3-5 HP with a tune, the bikes are going to be about the same overall, at the end of the day. As someone else pointed out, the reason for that rich condition could be due to increased ram air efficiency, which could account for the issue on the Dyno sheet..
Dyno sheets don't win races; riders do.
Both bikes will win as many races as the other. It will never be about the bikes, only the riders. You sound just like one of those guys you're bashing at bugger.org.
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FYYFF!!!
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Silver08
Expert Class
Posts: 461
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posted November 18, 2007 09:22 PM
quote:
Bently, man if some ppl can't read a dyno chart, then please stop trying to explain to them on how rich the 14 was. It is plain as night and day that the 14 needs a PC to lean it out. It makes me wonder though, how in the heck did Ricky Gadson run as fast as 9.10 on a '08 14 without a PC? I guess it was using the aftermarket exhaust and no air filter that helped lean it out.
Good info and ESPECIALLY that you guys found out that the '06 PC wouldn't work on the '08.
ya, pulling the air filter REALLY helped to lean out the 08 according to rickey
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08 ZX14
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BlackMagic14
Needs a job
Posts: 2058
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posted November 18, 2007 10:58 PM
Good post Bently that would sound right with the A/F where it was, Is it just me or was the 14 on top until the A/F went awry? I would think like bently has been saying all along you get that A/F worked out and the 14 will be right there within 3-4 HP which everyone knows that Bently may have a Monday morning busa and the 14 may be a friday afternoon bike LOL either way they are going to be so close it doesnt matter. If I had to guess based on what I saw in that dyno chart the 14 will have a little of a bottom end torque advantage and the busa may have a slight topend HP advantage I weigh 280 so I would choose the bike with the bottem end torque advantage to get my fat ass movin out of the hole... Either way great post bently!!
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b03818
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted November 18, 2007 11:44 PM
So you have to pull the air filter out of a stock bike to make it run right?
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I'll have some cole slaw with that beef.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted November 19, 2007 05:25 AM
quote:
1bad -- you're out to fuckin' lunch dude. Bently's a stand-up guy. Stop badgering him with the havabusa.org shit. You know the facts are the fucking facts. It's also widely known that the 08 Busa has a higher peak HP output than the 08 14. Coupled with the fact that the A/F ratio shows a very rich condition at high RPM, which would certainly get another 3-5 HP with a tune, the bikes are going to be about the same overall, at the end of the day. As someone else pointed out, the reason for that rich condition could be due to increased ram air efficiency, which could account for the issue on the Dyno sheet..
Dyno sheets don't win races; riders do.
Both bikes will win as many races as the other. It will never be about the bikes, only the riders. You sound just like one of those guys you're bashing at bugger.org.
i'm not bashing bently...just were the info comes from... busa better than sex. org ....put a condom over it....i ain't playing that to close to call shit ...and if bikes don't win races then get a honda nighthawk 650
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI
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famous1
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted November 19, 2007 05:45 AM
quote:
So you have to pull the air filter out of a stock bike to make it run right?
no...the bike runs fine.... at speed, the bike will not be rich....khi just compensated for a high flowing ram air set up..
when i get my new 14 i am going to try to mirror this rich condition even with pipe and other mods...
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greigh03
Parking Attendant
Posts: 5
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posted November 19, 2007 06:05 AM
the mileage factor as one of the notes pointed out is a key item - my bike - a 14 , i broke in as the book says , softly and slowly - and the power kept increasing until it seemed to stabilize , teh breakin is a key - three hundred miles on each and they have them on a dyno.....i didn't take mine above four grand for the first thousand - so how did they activate teh ram air ? did they use a fan or blow it in with a compressor ? no never mind - i like the style the ride teh looks and the seat better on the 14 - sure wish i could see the speedo at night time though
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02zx12rbob
Expert Class
Posts: 496
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posted November 19, 2007 06:59 AM
... "The Bullshit Stops When The Green Flag Drops ! ... 
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naj454
Novice Class
Posts: 83
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posted November 19, 2007 07:00 AM
The ZX-14 dyno is not right. I dyno mind this week and it make 174.1 and made 108.5 foot pound of tq.
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naj454
Novice Class
Posts: 83
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posted November 19, 2007 07:03 AM
and my miles was 390
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naj454
Novice Class
Posts: 83
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posted November 19, 2007 07:07 AM
Ricky, Was the only one who's dyno seem to be the most corrected. motorcyclist mag had the busa making 171 with only 97 foot pound of tq
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ZXLNT
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted November 19, 2007 07:17 AM
quote:
quote:
So you have to pull the air filter out of a stock bike to make it run right?
no...the bike runs fine.... at speed, the bike will not be rich....khi just compensated for a high flowing ram air set up..
when i get my new 14 i am going to try to mirror this rich condition even with pipe and other mods...
You have that correct. You will find that many tuners tune the bikes too lean on the dyno and it will make good power on the dyno and run like ass on the track. Dyno numbers aren't the savior everyone thinks they are. If you believe that Kaw didn't map it rich for a reason, then your mistaken..
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naj454
Novice Class
Posts: 83
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posted November 19, 2007 07:22 AM
I didn't pull the filter out of my bike. Everything was left just like I brought it.
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Sticks_n_Stones
Needs a job
Posts: 3930
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posted November 19, 2007 07:24 AM
 Edited By: Sticks_n_Stones on 19 Nov 2007 07:25
First thing first: explain to me how the mileage could possibly affect the A/F curve?!?! It cant! the HP gains from breaking it in come from simply freeing up HP lost due to friction in the tight internals. It does not and cannot affect the pumping action of the motor itself. It's parasitic loss thru friction I believe is the official term.
I wonder if Kawi enrichened it intentionally because at least 90% of the 14's made will have aftermarket high flowing exhausts installed soon after purchasing the bikes. And at least a quarter of them will get high flow filters, too. So if you knew that the vast majority of your bikes you are selling will find themselves in a lean condition like that, I personally would makem a bit rich at the factory (as long as it passes emissions) to compensate. Running part of its life at 10 to 1 is way safer than part of its life at 16 to 1. Ask any piston! lol
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'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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ZREXER
Expert Class
Posts: 492
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posted November 19, 2007 07:27 AM
Edited By: ZREXER on 19 Nov 2007 07:29
quote:
quote:
quote:
So you have to pull the air filter out of a stock bike to make it run right?
no...the bike runs fine.... at speed, the bike will not be rich....khi just compensated for a high flowing ram air set up..
when i get my new 14 i am going to try to mirror this rich condition even with pipe and other mods...
You have that correct. You will find that many tuners tune the bikes too lean on the dyno and it will make good power on the dyno and run like ass on the track. Dyno numbers aren't the savior everyone thinks they are. If you believe that Kaw didn't map it rich for a reason, then your mistaken..
I wonder the same thing. Leaning out the '14 above 8000 may give you a few more horsepower on the dyno, but on the road when the ram air is kicking in at speed, you may go way lean killing the top end power. I can't see Kawasaki purposely having the bike rich on the top end for no reason. Considering how hard they have to work to meet emissions regulations, you would think they would map it as lean as they possibly could without burning the engine up.
Is their a mobile device to see what the a/f is on the bike at speed? This would help explain the seemingly rich mapping.
Regarding the '08 '14 it would seem so far that peak HP is about the same as the older bikes. It seems the healtheir bottom end is more to do with the flys opening sooner and timing changes compared to the older bikes.
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wrongway
Pro
Posts: 1078
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posted November 19, 2007 07:49 AM
I run a wideband and data logger on the bike and even at 189 mph , it is reading rich with a 0 map.
I think the fuel injection is set up for ram air , pipe and mr9..... without going lean.
Roy
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kspz3
Expert Class
Posts: 334
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posted November 19, 2007 09:12 AM
quote:
quote:
So you have to pull the air filter out of a stock bike to make it run right?
no...the bike runs fine.... at speed, the bike will not be rich....khi just compensated for a high flowing ram air set up..
when i get my new 14 i am going to try to mirror this rich condition even with pipe and other mods...
Famous - You are confused and makin' stuff up..... You apparently have not study data from an acquisition unit. with O2 sensor..... They are not rich to compensate for Ram Air- they did that programming inside the ecm - my guess is they are rich to accomodate the inevidble pipe switch and all the ill informed out there that say you don't need a powercommander if you put a high performance exhaust.... rich is conservative and accodates the change. If you emulate this it will slow you down - but I do not know if you are racing -so that may not matter anyway. - And by the way.... I have not seen a material increase in Manifold Air Pressure up to 192 MPH - at least not on the stock sensor - seems the airbox may need some sealing up..... so for all those 10HP Ram Air gain theories..... I have only seen consistent preassure - meaning no drop under high speed, high RPM conditions. Just my 2 cents.
Kevin
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kspz3
Expert Class
Posts: 334
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posted November 19, 2007 09:15 AM
quote:
the mileage factor as one of the notes pointed out is a key item - my bike - a 14 , i broke in as the book says , softly and slowly - and the power kept increasing until it seemed to stabilize , teh breakin is a key - three hundred miles on each and they have them on a dyno.....i didn't take mine above four grand for the first thousand - so how did they activate teh ram air ? did they use a fan or blow it in with a compressor ? no never mind - i like the style the ride teh looks and the seat better on the 14 - sure wish i could see the speedo at night time though
If ypu break in soft - how do you know there is a power increase?
A believe they use a wind emulation tunnel to create the Ram Air effect on the recent FlowMAte 250 Series dyno - it is all the rage in internet based social network based speculative race venues around the world.
KSP
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kspz3
Expert Class
Posts: 334
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posted November 19, 2007 09:24 AM
Edited By: kspz3 on 19 Nov 2007 09:27
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
So you have to pull the air filter out of a stock bike to make it run right?
no...the bike runs fine.... at speed, the bike will not be rich....khi just compensated for a high flowing ram air set up..
when i get my new 14 i am going to try to mirror this rich condition even with pipe and other mods...
You have that correct. You will find that many tuners tune the bikes too lean on the dyno and it will make good power on the dyno and run like ass on the track. Dyno numbers aren't the savior everyone thinks they are. If you believe that Kaw didn't map it rich for a reason, then your mistaken..
I wonder the same thing. Leaning out the '14 above 8000 may give you a few more horsepower on the dyno, but on the road when the ram air is kicking in at speed, you may go way lean killing the top end power. I can't see Kawasaki purposely having the bike rich on the top end for no reason. Considering how hard they have to work to meet emissions regulations, you would think they would map it as lean as they possibly could without burning the engine up.
Is their a mobile device to see what the a/f is on the bike at speed? This would help explain the seemingly rich mapping.
Regarding the '08 '14 it would seem so far that peak HP is about the same as the older bikes. It seems the healtheir bottom end is more to do with the flys opening sooner and timing changes compared to the older bikes.
Data Acqusition units with o2 sensors tack air fuel ratios and record. I have tracked from sea level - 1500 feet and 4000 at Bonneville. The EMC in these things are amazing - there is no major leaning that occurs as a result of Ram Air - at least not up to 192MPH (measured not indicated). There is a slight variation - I would need to go and look that up again as I was really trying to confirm that it was on the money at sustained high speed - as this is where there is high stress on the engine - Also - all of my fastest passes where with Brocks' lean map as opposed to the richer 200MPH map - as popular thought currently holds - I think the name makes folks think it is faster -
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Sticks_n_Stones
Needs a job
Posts: 3930
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posted November 19, 2007 09:44 AM
kspz3 Just wondering since there is no drop in the manifold at speed under max load and max rpm that means the ram air IS working properly, doesnt it? Because if the manifold pressurized wouldn't there be an issue with said pressurization as far as things like EGR and such being suddenly reversed? From my laymans perspective keeping that airbox as close to atmospheric conditions would seem the best idea for the ram air. BUT if that was the case on the dyno that airbox should be showing some noticeable drops in pressure, right? Thats my experience from cars, especially cars with actual ram air hoods and snorkel tubes that feed of the high pressure zones. Static on a dyno and under way on the street are two different things. Had a ram air on one of my camaro's that I found to work best (in the 1/4) at 11 to 1 A/F on the dyno. The dyno operator thought I was off track, though, but I gained a tenth from that setting versus 12.5 to 1.
____________
'06 zx14
Muzzy M10/M14
PCIII w/ Muzzy map
Flies out K&N in!
bits n pieces...
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