zx14kawboi
Novice Class
just wanna be fast
Posts: 70
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posted November 25, 2007 03:12 PM
do you have your stock cams if so would you sell
  
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30thbusa
Parking Attendant
Posts: 16
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posted November 25, 2007 03:49 PM
davisag
Now this is interesting...
Your crank really looks good I'll be that will cut down on windage and stop oil airation, I know this works on v8 car engines and they only turn 1/2 the rpm as bikes...
The head looks good also... Are you doing all of your work?
Thanks for taking the time posting info and pictures I'm more interested in motor builds,
HAY WEE WEE WHAT DO YOU THINK!!!
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30thbusa
Parking Attendant
Posts: 16
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posted November 25, 2007 04:19 PM
davisag
Have you thought about deburing the sharp edges in the combustion chamber?
I do this with all the high compression motors I have built, this will help prevent detonation,spark nock or some call it preignition... I'm not trying to tell you how to build your bike but you will not lose mutch compression and I think it realy helps... Just hand sand the sharp edges... If you are going to use nitrous then you should consider this...
Again I think you have a realy nice build going ...
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted November 25, 2007 05:35 PM
quote:
hi
stuck with 1352cc the j&es are high compression replacments and retain the std rings, so everything will be bedded in as was
art
I'm thinking along the same lines ...CompetitionCNC ZX14 Head , 4 mill stroker crank , drop in 13.5.1 J&Es , .383" Intake/.358" Exhaust/Hard Weld cams with a good set of springs ,,65 psi on seat... Good set of aftermarket rods .....With a 4 mill stroker crank the pistons will be dished and less chance of detonation and a much better flame travel ....With the aftermarket rods you would get ARP cap scew bolts .. The stock rods are not a problem but the stock bolts can be ...Smokin..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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fastest-14
Expert Class
Fastest -14
Posts: 354
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posted November 25, 2007 09:45 PM
Smoke, with the mods you are talking about here, will you be doing any street riding with this engine as well as track runs or just all track runs?
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30thbusa
Parking Attendant
Posts: 16
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posted November 25, 2007 10:41 PM
smokinzx14
Sounds good, are you planning to build it yourself?
If the stock rods will hold then why not save the money and install ARP rod bolts???
How about the extra stroke lenth, your piston pin hole will need to be moved upward or were you going to use shorter rods? Have you checked into over bore compaired to stroking, I think money wise the over bore is more cost frendly...
4 millimeters is 0.1574803148 inches and you would need to lower your piston .0787401574 inches. I am not saying its a bad plan but it'll cost you...
Its a shame that kawasaki didn't make the cylinders removeable like suzuki, you know they didn't save that mutch money on assembly...
With the 4 mill or .157 stroke you have a 1440cc motor...
with the 3 mill or .118 bore you have a 1450 cc motor...
Trade off that I see is stroked motor will have more torque , power will be made at a lower rpm, and the biggie cost more. I think 2 times as mutch with smaller cc...
The bored motor will no dought run hotter,have more HP,and power will be at a higher rpm..
If I were thinking of stroking and you said you were going with dished pistons, I could not buy pistons without boring it at least 2 mill, but thats me...
Just something to think about a good well thought out plan is better than saying opps any day... Thanks fore the reply and making us or me think... my math might be off, little rusty...
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30thbusa
Parking Attendant
Posts: 16
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posted November 25, 2007 10:50 PM
DOES ANY BODY KNOW THE STOCK CAM PROFILE I CANT FIND IT ANY WHERE
some one knowes!!! I'll be your friend, just tell me... come on please...
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted November 26, 2007 10:06 AM
quote:
Smoke, with the mods you are talking about here, will you be doing any street riding with this engine as well as track runs or just all track runs?
I will use it on track only but keeping the stock bore it should be just fine on the street ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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zx14mike
Zone Head
Posts: 891
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posted November 26, 2007 10:07 AM
I'm very interesting in the before and after differences in power as well.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted November 26, 2007 10:46 AM
 Edited By: smokinzx14 on 26 Nov 2007 10:50
quote:
smokinzx14
Sounds good, are you planning to build it yourself?
If the stock rods will hold then why not save the money and install ARP rod bolts???
How about the extra stroke lenth, your piston pin hole will need to be moved upward or were you going to use shorter rods? Have you checked into over bore compaired to stroking, I think money wise the over bore is more cost frendly...
4 millimeters is 0.1574803148 inches and you would need to lower your piston .0787401574 inches. I am not saying its a bad plan but it'll cost you...
Its a shame that kawasaki didn't make the cylinders removeable like suzuki, you know they didn't save that mutch money on assembly...
With the 4 mill or .157 stroke you have a 1440cc motor...
with the 3 mill or .118 bore you have a 1450 cc motor...
Trade off that I see is stroked motor will have more torque , power will be made at a lower rpm, and the biggie cost more. I think 2 times as mutch with smaller cc...
The bored motor will no dought run hotter,have more HP,and power will be at a higher rpm..
If I were thinking of stroking and you said you were going with dished pistons, I could not buy pistons without boring it at least 2 mill, but thats me...
Just something to think about a good well thought out plan is better than saying opps any day... Thanks fore the reply and making us or me think... my math might be off, little rusty...
two reasons not to go 2 mill over one the bore ..One... my bores are not worn out and seeing that it's a 2 part block i would like to save the bore job for went it's really needed ... Two ..Thicker Cly walls will retain heat better and make more HP .... 32 years of building motors i have found that stroke allways works better for a drag type motor .. Most people look for HP numbers while i tend to look for large fat TQ curves ...Stock rods will be just fine with aftermarket bolts AS long as the are shot peened, beams polished and resized after the new bolts are installed ...I have not found a listing yet from ARP for HD rod bolts ....So that why i said to go with aftermarket rods ..Even if ARP does come out with a bolt it will not be as strong as a cap style bolt ...I have talked to J&E about the pin placement and a 4 mill stroke will work just fine with the stock rod , it doesn't put the pin in danger of being to close to the lower oil ring .. I like to run as long as rod possible to keep the rod ratio to above 1.5 ...I would like to see it at 1.8 but it's not possible with out a block spacer like used on the Busas .. The longer the rod the better and fatter the TQ curve will be .... Seeing we seem to be dealing with a head that had very low flow numbers it's better to have more piston dwell time to help fill the cambers and a long rod ,long stroke will do just that ....With more dwell time and longer stroke fools the Engine into thinking it has a bigger head and cams because it has more time to fill the cambers..... Piston speed will speed up after the dwell time making port velocity speed up at lower RPMs and that adds TQ in the low and mid ranges ...The motor will still be done at making HP 10800 RPMs but this is not a 1000cc motor and no real need to spin it to 14000 ... From a cost point a welded stroker is about the cost of rebore and replate ..J&E has made a few of the pistons for a 4 mill stroke so no extra cost for a custom piston ...The pistons are not on the shelf so you do have to order them...My thinking around this is you have a 500 pound bike and not a liter bike at 425 pounds so you need the extra TQ ASAP to get moving fast ....I'm sure you can come up with a 1000 different ways to do this and they will all work but building TQ has allways worked for me ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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SteddyTeddy
Pro
Posts: 1664
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posted November 26, 2007 11:30 AM
Get ahold of TEX for prices on the JE pistons. Looks like your expecting Santa to be good to you this year.LOL
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davisag
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted November 26, 2007 01:52 PM
hi
yes have beburred the sharp edges in the combustion chamber , the photos maybe do not show it so well, a friend of mine did all the head work and we are doing the build between us, will start a new post with all the pics of the build when i take them in the next few days. just cannot decide what figure to degree the ex cam in at , settlling on the inlet at 108 degrees, but that carpenter ex cam , has a lot more lift and duration than std , and was going to set the ex at 104 degrees but bit worried a lot of gas is going to dissappear down the ex on the overlap and considering settint the ex at 108 degrees as well
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted November 26, 2007 02:34 PM
I totally agree with every single thing Smokin said about the stroker and rod ratio's.
Been there too....
except I want a turbo'd stroker! 
my wet dream... ! LOL
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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fastest-14
Expert Class
Fastest -14
Posts: 354
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posted November 26, 2007 04:20 PM
quote:
quote:
Smoke, with the mods you are talking about here, will you be doing any street riding with this engine as well as track runs or just all track runs?
I will use it on track only but keeping the stock bore it should be just fine on the street ..
My reason for asking Smoke is because, I have spoken to several top builders also friends of mines who have stroked their motors. The problem that you run into when stroking a motor versus boring is the increased speed of the bearing and pistons can and will eventually create a problem down the road with bearings getting spun especially if you are still going to ride this bike on the street. Strocking just causes too much stress on the crank. Sure, you will gain a ton of torque down low but not for a price along with the added risk and yes a stroked engine will run hotter than a stock engine just like a bored engine will. If you are going to race it only, then the bike is goin to be torn down much more often anyway. From a cost stand point, I'm with "30thbusa". Boring is more cost effective. Not quite as costly as stroking a motor and not as labor intensive. With a big bore along with the head work and cams you will gain torque as well as HP all the way through the rpm range. With the stroker engine, tq will be gained more on the low end.
Another example I wanted to add regarding stroker motors is on the day I passed the flag to ZXGRIFF, a friend of mines on a Gsrx 1000, whom I had done a couple of 2nd gear roll ons with in the past, he had went and got his engine stroked 4mm by a well known builder here in NC, who's name I won't say here. Anyway, all I can say is that he was pulling better than he was the first couple of times I raced him but once I reached 4th gear, the end result was the same as the times before. I started pulling him. Keep in mind he's 150 lbs, I'm 220 lbs, so at equal weight I would have started pulling him sooner. Well, I noticed that after I had gotten about 30, 40 yards ahead of him, he started pulling over to the side of the road. Come to find out he had spun a bearing as a result of the strocker crank.
My personal advice to anyone. If you want more power and torque and you are going to be riding it on the street, do the head work and bore but stay away from the crank.
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zx14mike
Zone Head
Posts: 891
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posted November 26, 2007 04:34 PM
Smoking, would head porting and a cam mesh nicely with a stroker motor or would those work against the increased low end torque achieved with a stroker and cancel it out?
When you say you prefer a stroker motor, is that the ONLY mod you would do or would you do it in combination with a Cam, ported head, hi compression pistons etc....
I know the ZX14 is much more a torque motor than the 12 which is more of a screamer, and most would i assume prefer to keep the character of the power intact would it be possible to gain power throughout the rev range or would you be sacrificing lowend and midrange for for more meak horsepower on the topend if you were to get a cam and ported head even with increased stroke and a high compression piston.
Also would a sttroker be reliable on the street?
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zx14mike
Zone Head
Posts: 891
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posted November 26, 2007 04:40 PM
Thanks fastest 14.............you answered my question before i even asked it.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted November 26, 2007 05:07 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Smoke, with the mods you are talking about here, will you be doing any street riding with this engine as well as track runs or just all track runs?
I will use it on track only but keeping the stock bore it should be just fine on the street ..
My reason for asking Smoke is because, I have spoken to several top builders also friends of mines who have stroked their motors. The problem that you run into when stroking a motor versus boring is the increased speed of the bearing and pistons can and will eventually create a problem down the road with bearings getting spun especially if you are still going to ride this bike on the street. Strocking just causes too much stress on the crank. Sure, you will gain a ton of torque down low but not for a price along with the added risk and yes a stroked engine will run hotter than a stock engine just like a bored engine will. If you are going to race it only, then the bike is goin to be torn down much more often anyway. From a cost stand point, I'm with "30thbusa". Boring is more cost effective. Not quite as costly as stroking a motor and not as labor intensive. With a big bore along with the head work and cams you will gain torque as well as HP all the way through the rpm range. With the stroker engine, tq will be gained more on the low end.
Another example I wanted to add regarding stroker motors is on the day I passed the flag to ZXGRIFF, a friend of mines on a Gsrx 1000, whom I had done a couple of 2nd gear roll ons with in the past, he had went and got his engine stroked 4mm by a well known builder here in NC, who's name I won't say here. Anyway, all I can say is that he was pulling better than he was the first couple of times I raced him but once I reached 4th gear, the end result was the same as the times before. I started pulling him. Keep in mind he's 150 lbs, I'm 220 lbs, so at equal weight I would have started pulling him sooner. Well, I noticed that after I had gotten about 30, 40 yards ahead of him, he started pulling over to the side of the road. Come to find out he had spun a bearing as a result of the strocker crank.
My personal advice to anyone. If you want more power and torque and you are going to be riding it on the street, do the head work and bore but stay away from the crank.
Your points are good ones ...Lot of stroker motors do have bearing problems most of the problems are traced back to the rods,compression or oiling ....Stock rods get out of shape real fast and the stock bolts lose clamping power real quick...Bearings get blamed when shit happens....Most times it has nothing to do with the bearings or stroke but has everything to do with 13.5 and 14.5 pistons ... High compesssion ratios hammer rod bearings to a plup real fast .. Full on race motors i build get 250 passes and then are torn down and ckecked ... You can make a stroker live a long happy life if you do as followed ...Better oiling,More oil, better oil 15 50 wt ,better rods, lighter pistons and keep the compression ratio to a sane level ...Years ago we had the same problems that you are talking about in car motors..But today rods, cranks.pistons and oil are much better than 25 or even 15 years ago .. Case in point > I sold my 63 plymouth Super stocker to a guy in England ..The car had a 4.150 stroker crank with 14.8.1 pistons...I told him he needed do a tear down at 500 runs and check the big end of the rods, replace the rod bolts , Valve springs ( 800 inch lift roller cam ) Did he ??? hell NO he didn't and the motor is still running fine with over 750 runs and countless street miles .. !!!! I have about 25 stroker motors on the street that also race at the track and have zero problems ....This can be done with a Bike engine if done correctly ....Like i said there are 1000 ways to do this and everybody has their own way of doing it ...It doesn't mean i'm right and it doesn't mean they are wrong .. I would say if a zx14 owner doesn't want to go with all this drama of building a strong motor just get a turbo and keep the boost low and the fuel rich on boost and have fun ..
There is a fine line between a race motor and a streetable motor ..Cross that line and you will spend a lot of time on up keep...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
|
smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted November 26, 2007 05:20 PM
quote:
Smoking, would head porting and a cam mesh nicely with a stroker motor or would those work against the increased low end torque achieved with a stroker and cancel it out?
When you say you prefer a stroker motor, is that the ONLY mod you would do or would you do it in combination with a Cam, ported head, hi compression pistons etc....
I know the ZX14 is much more a torque motor than the 12 which is more of a screamer, and most would i assume prefer to keep the character of the power intact would it be possible to gain power throughout the rev range or would you be sacrificing lowend and midrange for for more meak horsepower on the topend if you were to get a cam and ported head even with increased stroke and a high compression piston.
Also would a sttroker be reliable on the street?
Mike for MAX power you do it all ...That leads me back to the first post ...Are you using all the power you have now ? I know guys with 500 hp turbo bikes that can't use the power .... For the Avg rider i would say do the head and cams with a small increase of CR and leave it be ...That will be a nice bump in power and zero down sides as far as street driving ...My case is different that most because i'm running with some heavy hitters and need all the power i can get ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
|
smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
|
posted November 26, 2007 05:51 PM
Guys i'm sorry .. Some of this engine tec stuff is hard to follow ... Most of you are only looking for small increase in power and still have a bike that will runs for years on the street ... My case is very different as far as my needs for speed ....
Please take note > Any power that you add and it doesn't matter how you add it, It will decrease the life of you engine .. Even a pipe and P/C will take life out of your engine... You have to decide for yourself what you are willing to put up with as far as streetablity and longgivity ..Remember speed costs and how fast you want to go is how deep your pockets are ....Smokin..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
|
fastest-14
Expert Class
Fastest -14
Posts: 354
|
posted November 26, 2007 07:44 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Smoke, with the mods you are talking about here, will you be doing any street riding with this engine as well as track runs or just all track runs?
I will use it on track only but keeping the stock bore it should be just fine on the street ..
My reason for asking Smoke is because, I have spoken to several top builders also friends of mines who have stroked their motors. The problem that you run into when stroking a motor versus boring is the increased speed of the bearing and pistons can and will eventually create a problem down the road with bearings getting spun especially if you are still going to ride this bike on the street. Strocking just causes too much stress on the crank. Sure, you will gain a ton of torque down low but not for a price along with the added risk and yes a stroked engine will run hotter than a stock engine just like a bored engine will. If you are going to race it only, then the bike is goin to be torn down much more often anyway. From a cost stand point, I'm with "30thbusa". Boring is more cost effective. Not quite as costly as stroking a motor and not as labor intensive. With a big bore along with the head work and cams you will gain torque as well as HP all the way through the rpm range. With the stroker engine, tq will be gained more on the low end.
Another example I wanted to add regarding stroker motors is on the day I passed the flag to ZXGRIFF, a friend of mines on a Gsrx 1000, whom I had done a couple of 2nd gear roll ons with in the past, he had went and got his engine stroked 4mm by a well known builder here in NC, who's name I won't say here. Anyway, all I can say is that he was pulling better than he was the first couple of times I raced him but once I reached 4th gear, the end result was the same as the times before. I started pulling him. Keep in mind he's 150 lbs, I'm 220 lbs, so at equal weight I would have started pulling him sooner. Well, I noticed that after I had gotten about 30, 40 yards ahead of him, he started pulling over to the side of the road. Come to find out he had spun a bearing as a result of the strocker crank.
My personal advice to anyone. If you want more power and torque and you are going to be riding it on the street, do the head work and bore but stay away from the crank.
Your points are good ones ...Lot of stroker motors do have bearing problems most of the problems are traced back to the rods,compression or oiling ....Stock rods get out of shape real fast and the stock bolts lose clamping power real quick...Bearings get blamed when shit happens....Most times it has nothing to do with the bearings or stroke but has everything to do with 13.5 and 14.5 pistons ... High compesssion ratios hammer rod bearings to a plup real fast .. Full on race motors i build get 250 passes and then are torn down and ckecked ... You can make a stroker live a long happy life if you do as followed ...Better oiling,More oil, better oil 15 50 wt ,better rods, lighter pistons and keep the compression ratio to a sane level ...Years ago we had the same problems that you are talking about in car motors..But today rods, cranks.pistons and oil are much better than 25 or even 15 years ago .. Case in point > I sold my 63 plymouth Super stocker to a guy in England ..The car had a 4.150 stroker crank with 14.8.1 pistons...I told him he needed do a tear down at 500 runs and check the big end of the rods, replace the rod bolts , Valve springs ( 800 inch lift roller cam ) Did he ??? hell NO he didn't and the motor is still running fine with over 750 runs and countless street miles .. !!!! I have about 25 stroker motors on the street that also race at the track and have zero problems ....This can be done with a Bike engine if done correctly ....Like i said there are 1000 ways to do this and everybody has their own way of doing it ...It doesn't mean i'm right and it doesn't mean they are wrong .. I would say if a zx14 owner doesn't want to go with all this drama of building a strong motor just get a turbo and keep the boost low and the fuel rich on boost and have fun ..
There is a fine line between a race motor and a streetable motor ..Cross that line and you will spend a lot of time on up keep...
Guys i'm sorry .. Some of this engine tec stuff is hard to follow ... Most of you are only looking for small increase in power and still have a bike that will runs for years on the street ... My case is very different as far as my needs for speed ....
Please take note > Any power that you add and it doesn't matter how you add it, It will decrease the life of you engine .. Even a pipe and P/C will take life out of your engine... You have to decide for yourself what you are willing to put up with as far as streetablity and longgivity ..Remember speed costs and how fast you want to go is how deep your pockets are ....Smokin..
_______________________________________________________________________
All your points are well spokin, Smoke! As you stated earlier, in a sense, if you want total street reliability, leave it stock. The moment you split the casings, that's when you start to loose reliability and streetability, depending on what's done to the engine. It would be nice to get the kind of enhanced power tht we want out of these already powerful bikes and still retain 100% reliability. Not going happen.
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted November 26, 2007 08:01 PM
anything that makes the engine more efficient, short of retarded compression ratio's and forced induction will make more HP reliably.
Let it breathe!
Porting an 06-07 has alreay been demonstrated wit the new 08 Head.
that has given the bike the bulk of its increase upper RPM HP.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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