Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted August 13, 2007 08:02 AM
Track map didn't workout on my bike
Briefly and I'll finish later..........
Went back to the dyno with U4 and turned out the track map was way lean. With pump the A/F was 12-8 , 12-9 a couple weeks ago. With U4 this last weekend it was right about 14-1. Took the A/F back to 12-7, 12-8 and picked up 8hp . More later.
  
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted August 13, 2007 09:44 AM
So I had ran it last weekend and the pipe showed a lean condition and thats why I went to the dyno to verify it. I was gaining 27mph in the back half and it should be at least 29-30. When I dynoed before it had 184 peak hp. WHen I say peak I mean at the very last part of the run there was a spike. Normal hp was more like 181. I have since added the TRE .006 and removed my modified Air filter. Also this time around I have a Shinko ultra and if you don't know will remove 7-10 hp and has been proven back to back pulls. I proved this I think once again.
My first pull was 175 hp , next 2 were 176 with U4 at 14-1 A/f. Ryan fixed the map and the bike went back to 184 hp after a good 10-12 heat soaked pulls with a very heated tire. So........ I believe if I put the stock tire back on it would have been in the low 190s in hp. THis is by far a not so happy dyno by the way. My busa had put out 194 hp and it ran 8.90's @ 156 before making some changes. Can't wait to try it out again this weds at Muncie drags.
A piped 06 r6 put out 105 right after mine came off. Just for comparisons with other dynos.
More later. Have to type on my breaks at work.lol
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dubious
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Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted August 13, 2007 10:51 AM
Brocks maxton map perportedly is richer, the one he told me to use...
Maybe stupid question but are you sure it was brocks MR9, no a/f track map, maybe error downloading it?
The shinko gives up 8 RWHP.
Is that due to its weight, or diameter?
Why would everyone be running it then, unless its additonal traction makes up for the loss in HP? weird....
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smokinzx14
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Posts: 10197
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posted August 13, 2007 12:44 PM
Something sounds funny........Maybe you got some of that crappy u4 that was really u4.1 or u4.2.... U4 in my bike made 12.9 13.0 same map as yours..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted August 13, 2007 05:21 PM
quote:
Brocks maxton map perportedly is richer, the one he told me to use...
Maybe stupid question but are you sure it was brocks MR9, no a/f track map, maybe error downloading it?
The shinko gives up 8 RWHP.
Is that due to its weight, or diameter?
Why would everyone be running it then, unless its additonal traction makes up for the loss in HP? weird....
No question is stupid. The pc came right from Brock with the map installed. Brock also sent Ryan Schnitz the Maxton so we could switch them on the dyno just to see what difference it made. After trying both we felt the Track was better for my application but now I'm thinking different because of how lean the fuel made my bike. I hope I didn't get the crap fuel instead of what I paid for but I do know that the 4.1 AND 4.2 is marked but wondering was it ALWAYS marked from the beginning or was it replacement in the beginning and after they found out it was shit brought back the old U4 and marked the others accordingly????? The Honda shop I got it from orders at the beginning of spring and thats it. So guess I'll be calling VP on this one. But regardless, I do know you lose that much power with the SHinko due to its tire patch and how soft it is. Only takes it a couple runs and heats up pretty good and due to the softness it'll stick to the roller. Some peope claim around 1 -1.5 mph loss in the 1/4 but that could be due to the shorter 60ft you pull because you can launch that much harder??
Smokin' - How did you test that, guess i thought you have never been on a dyno?? So what does your bike dyno at??
Maybe I'll ask Ryan to step in here and give his opinion on this. All I do know is I gained HP back and beat on the bike on the way home and it's showing alot better color on the pipe.
A note on the TRE. I have no popping at all with it installed but still show a couple hp difference between 4th and 5th.
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Bently
Needs a life
2012 14r In Blue and no Mods!
Posts: 5428
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posted August 13, 2007 06:08 PM
My 14 was also dead on with the track map and showed no signs of being lean, But I was on 87 pump gas. I use to pick up 30 to 31 mph in the back half till I went with the shinko then I would only pick up about 27 to 28 on average. But I had to run alot lower tire pressure.
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smokinzx14
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posted August 13, 2007 06:26 PM
My bike has never been on a real dyno like a 250i......But it has been on a crappy dyno drag dyno and read 187 hp..... I think that number is way to high, i feel the numbers are closer to 177.. If i use Motorcycle HP Estimator at the Prostar web site i get 181 hp...My air fuel numbers come from testing at the track with a wide band 02 .
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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BrooklynNYZX12
Zone Head
Posts: 520
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posted August 13, 2007 06:28 PM
That Shinko weighs 2 tons....very heavy tire. Just my .02
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smokinzx14
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Posts: 10197
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posted August 13, 2007 06:37 PM
Quote >>>>Went back to the dyno with U4 and turned out the track map was way lean. With pump the A/F was 12-8 , 12-9 a couple weeks ago. With U4 this last weekend it was right about 14-1. Took the A/F back to 12-7, 12-8 and picked up 8hp . More later.
I saw the same thing happening to guys using the new u4-1 and 2 fuels , they went way lean just like yours did ...... Thats why i asked the Question about the U4 fuel ...
I would say as good as your zx14 ran for the first time to the track on pump gas the map had to be right ...Maybe it's the fuel that caused the needed remap...? Remember that Brocks maps are for mr9 but will work with the old u4 and pump gas BUT makes the best power in MR9... Smokin..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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flatoutbu
Pro
Posts: 1054
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posted August 13, 2007 06:49 PM
Pat, my bike made 190hp and 111ft.lbs of torque on Ryans dyno at 11 inchs over and a shinko on U4.1. I since went back to 8 inchs out but im still running a shinko u soft. i can bring my dyno sheet wednesday if ya wanna compair sheets. I had mine tuned in april or may when it was starting summer.
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06 Blue 14
9.008 at 153mph @ 195 suited
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted August 14, 2007 07:38 AM
quote:
That Shinko weighs 2 tons....very heavy tire. Just my .02
Same as stock. 38 pounds before shinko and the same after. FYI
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted August 14, 2007 07:47 AM
Just talked to Jay at VP headquarters and he said it WILL run way leaner than Mr9 because U4 has 3 times more oxegen in it . Also, Reg. U4 is clear and 4.2 is not. I have clear. Jay also said there maybe a 1% increase in power. I'll pay 75.00 for U4 rather than MR9 at 150.00.
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted August 14, 2007 07:52 AM
quote:
Quote >>>>Went back to the dyno with U4 and turned out the track map was way lean. With pump the A/F was 12-8 , 12-9 a couple weeks ago. With U4 this last weekend it was right about 14-1. Took the A/F back to 12-7, 12-8 and picked up 8hp . More later.
I saw the same thing happening to guys using the new u4-1 and 2 fuels , they went way lean just like yours did ...... Thats why i asked the Question about the U4 fuel ...
I would say as good as your zx14 ran for the first time to the track on pump gas the map had to be right ...Maybe it's the fuel that caused the needed remap...? Remember that Brocks maps are for mr9 but will work with the old u4 and pump gas BUT makes the best power in MR9... Smokin..
I had U4 in it when I ran it. THats why I figured I was lean because I only picked up 27 and the pipe was greyish not a nice light tan color. Going to run Weds.
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ryan schnitz
Novice Class
Posts: 63
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posted August 14, 2007 08:30 AM
I know the shinko's will show a loss in power compared to stock OEM tires (from factory)
I know Pat's fuel was kinda old and in a opened container for a few months.
I know Pat's Shinko got hot and a little slimmy on the dyno and may have slipped some.
I would be interesting to see Pat bring the bike back down with fresh U4 and his stock tire for a true comparison.
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flatoutbu
Pro
Posts: 1054
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posted August 14, 2007 08:53 AM
quote:
quote:
Quote >>>>Went back to the dyno with U4 and turned out the track map was way lean. With pump the A/F was 12-8 , 12-9 a couple weeks ago. With U4 this last weekend it was right about 14-1. Took the A/F back to 12-7, 12-8 and picked up 8hp . More later.
I saw the same thing happening to guys using the new u4-1 and 2 fuels , they went way lean just like yours did ...... Thats why i asked the Question about the U4 fuel ...
I would say as good as your zx14 ran for the first time to the track on pump gas the map had to be right ...Maybe it's the fuel that caused the needed remap...? Remember that Brocks maps are for mr9 but will work with the old u4 and pump gas BUT makes the best power in MR9... Smokin..
I had U4 in it when I ran it. THats why I figured I was lean because I only picked up 27 and the pipe was greyish not a nice light tan color. Going to run Weds.
Maybe...it looks like 40% chance of rain tomorrow. I havent been in a month, now that i wanna go......
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06 Blue 14
9.008 at 153mph @ 195 suited
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smokinzx14
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Posts: 10197
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posted August 14, 2007 11:31 AM
Old opened u4 ... well that could be the problem ...My pipe allway runs grey , never saw it run tanish in color..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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dubious
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posted August 14, 2007 11:45 AM
I agree Lee,
All of our MX bikes have grey pipes from U4, never saw tan.
It burns that much cleaner.... not necessarilly leaner!
Really, it burns that clean dudes!
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zx12dak
Expert Class
Posts: 103
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posted August 14, 2007 04:37 PM
Pat's pipe looked quite lean when I saw his bake at Osceloa. A lot whiter than mine or any of the Busa's of my buddies. I was running U4.2 and so was my one of my buddies on a Busa. My other buddy was running reg U4 that day. What is the general consensus as to what gas is the better fuel??? Reg U4 or U4.2?? I know U4.1 sucks because Ryan tried to tune my buddies Busa with it and he could never get it rich enough. The injectors maxed out with only like a 3-4 HP gain.
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted August 14, 2007 04:40 PM
quote:
Old opened u4 ... well that could be the problem ...My pipe allway runs grey , never saw it run tanish in color..
Thats a lean condition. A very nice light tan color is what you want. Race fuels will give a true color and pump will give crap. I've been doing this a long long time and this is fact. I saw grey on the pipe and saw the lean cond. on the dyno. When tuning cars back in the day, we always checked the plugs to get the right jetting and it has always been tan we were after. Maybe you better check your A/F on a dyno with a real sniffer to verify. The fuel has a slight ?? to it but I was told its good for 6-8 months if kept in the steel container and off the concrete. I believe if it was stale, it wouldn't have been so lean over pump fuel. But in this case it was.
Next topic- anyone ever have a problem with a sunstar front sprocket(16 t) skipping or chain riding up on it??
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted August 14, 2007 05:10 PM
quote:
quote:
Old opened u4 ... well that could be the problem ...My pipe allway runs grey , never saw it run tanish in color..
Thats a lean condition. A very nice light tan color is what you want. Race fuels will give a true color and pump will give crap. I've been doing this a long long time and this is fact. I saw grey on the pipe and saw the lean cond. on the dyno. When tuning cars back in the day, we always checked the plugs to get the right jetting and it has always been tan we were after. Maybe you better check your A/F on a dyno with a real sniffer to verify. The fuel has a slight ?? to it but I was told its good for 6-8 months if kept in the steel container and off the concrete. I believe if it was stale, it wouldn't have been so lean over pump fuel. But in this case it was.
Next topic- anyone ever have a problem with a sunstar front sprocket(16 t) skipping or chain riding up on it??
Plugs tan YES ... Tan pipe NO....I have been tuning cars and bikes for 33 years......Talk down to me all you want but it will not get you very far ... All i was doing is trying to help you . If you don't want help don't ask ....You don't tune by what the pipes looks like you tune by the look of the plugs ..
On to that sunstar ....Yup they are junk .... Seen two people have problems with them... Get a Vortec .... Wait a second you are so smart you allready know that ...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted August 14, 2007 05:24 PM
Ouch!!!!!!!!! Think you took that wrong there smokin. Wasn't talking down to you, just stating the pipe will show a true color thats all. You also can tune cars by the headers . Thanks for your help. Later
Must of had a bad day LOL!!!!!!!!!
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted August 14, 2007 05:27 PM
Dang dude, I re-read just to see where you were coming from with your bullshit post to me and still can't see it. Thats pretty fucked up. Must of rubbed you wrong somewhere or sometime.
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smokinzx14
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Posts: 10197
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posted August 14, 2007 06:00 PM
quote:
Dang dude, I re-read just to see where you were coming from with your bullshit post to me and still can't see it. Thats pretty fucked up. Must of rubbed you wrong somewhere or sometime.
 ok have a nice day....
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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dubious
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Posts: 8442
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posted August 14, 2007 06:46 PM
LOL
I guess every motocross bike I have seen run U4 was lean then... mine included.
It was tuned for 13.0 a/f ratio, then adjusted at the track for throttle response.
Every single 4 stroke MX bike running u4 that I have seen was grey on the pipe outlet .
Not hundreds, thousands of them. including the bikes at the Canadian Nationals, Doug Dubachs included... they don't allow leaded fuels in the US MX nationals, only ameteurs.., the reason MR9 was developed was to meet AMA regulations ...
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BlackMagic14
Needs a job
Posts: 2058
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posted August 14, 2007 06:48 PM
SO which is the best fuel u4 u4.2 or MR9 (do they still make mr9) or MRX 01???
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