justoyz2
Zone Head
Justoyz Racing
Posts: 858
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posted July 17, 2007 09:25 AM
I have the Brock maps, and there's always some improvement. The Brock map set is a very, very good starting point. However, that map is not exactly for your bike. I have learned this.... each time I hit the track I make a change for the conditions vs my mph. It's not much but a lil change is required to maintain that opt performance.
My bike continues to run 145 mph on pump gas regardless where I go to race, because I tweak the map for the condition of the day.
justoyz
60in zx14, no fly, 16f, SMEG (155short, 6:10 1/8,9:40 ft shifting) 200lbs
  
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johnsonzx14
Expert Class
Posts: 487
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posted July 17, 2007 03:34 PM
I still got the pop with the maxton map, but its not bad...
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted July 17, 2007 07:00 PM
Dyno Tune your bike if you want it optimum. Brock's maps are great maps but, if a tuner tells you he can't improve on a canned map, You might want to try going to a different tuner. I've never came across a canned map that couldn't be improved. I myself have sent guys maps for their bikes and told them to get them tuned when the had the loot to do so. Cheapest HP money can buy.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted July 17, 2007 08:43 PM
I'll stick with my Brocks maps .....  My proof is in the numbers......Smokin..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted July 18, 2007 07:47 AM
quote:
I'll stick with my Brocks maps ..... My proof is in the numbers......Smokin..
Hey, if it works for ya. Stick with it.
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blue max
Expert Class
Posts: 214
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posted July 18, 2007 09:59 AM
once again smokin, do you mess with the buttons of the pc or just run like brock sends it? i was running it just as i loaded it this spring and ran a 9.26. well everybody seemed to be impressed, then a few weeks later it was a cool nite so the boys leaned it out some in the middle and at the top and ran about the same, 9.23. i just screw around on the thing once in awhile so i don't want to bother brock
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best 9.23
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted July 18, 2007 10:51 AM
cooler air has more oxygen as the air is denser.
Cooler requires richer, hotter rquires leaner...
My pipe tip turns black from being a little rich.
It is Brocks map.
If you tune it spot on for a/f ratio then it will lose some throttle response.
Yes the unburned fuel sometimes ignites in the megaphone.
Friends are amazed to see blue flame shoot out the exhaust at night in hot weather on decel pop.
The PC fuel cells at 100% throttle open are feeding more fuel when it is initially turned WFO throttle as the engine is picking up rpm, so to tune it for say 4000 rpm and 100 % TP, is only so accurate, it run right through that cell very quickly, then on to 4200 etc....
These engines pick up revs very quickly compared to auto engines, and thus the reason closed loop fuel injection is so difficult to tune , and the reason industry has stayed with
open loop designs.
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted July 18, 2007 07:33 PM
quote:
once again smokin, do you mess with the buttons of the pc or just run like brock sends it? i was running it just as i loaded it this spring and ran a 9.26. well everybody seemed to be impressed, then a few weeks later it was a cool nite so the boys leaned it out some in the middle and at the top and ran about the same, 9.23. i just screw around on the thing once in awhile so i don't want to bother brock
No i don't fool with the buttons and i think there is little need to ... I leave things alone and the reason is everytime you make a change you have to change your riding to max out that change ...Let me put it this way >> if i make a change it will take me 10 to 20 runs to prove that change worked or didn't work....If you can't back up the data then the data is junk ...I think what some of you guys are missing is even if you have a P/C the factory ECU will still make changes to the A/F ratio ... True they will be small changes but the adjustments you make on the face plate of the P/C are small changes also... In testing on my zx14 from cold temps to hot temps the MPH has stayed the same ...True my ETs do change from hot to cold temps but that loss or gain is sometimes the track not hooking from being to cold or hot ...But the MPH staying the same tells me the HP is the same or very close to the same.. The only way it can keep the same HP or close to the same HP would be the ECU making small adjustments on the A/F ratio.... Smokin..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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blue max
Expert Class
Posts: 214
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posted July 19, 2007 01:33 PM
cool! i will reload the race map as brock sent it
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best 9.23
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted July 20, 2007 07:25 PM
Smokin' did you tune your bike or are you running a map from Brock w/ no adjustments? You've probably already stated the answer in this post but, I didn't want to re-read again. Are you close geographically to Brock? I ask this because there are gains to be had from tuning, especially if your in a different elevation.
I'm sure Brock would reiterate this fact also.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted July 21, 2007 04:35 PM
quote:
Smokin' did you tune your bike or are you running a map from Brock w/ no adjustments? You've probably already stated the answer in this post but, I didn't want to re-read again. Are you close geographically to Brock? I ask this because there are gains to be had from tuning, especially if your in a different elevation.
I'm sure Brock would reiterate this fact also.
It's Brocks race map ... And no i'm not messing with it . I live no where near Brocks ....The only way i would ever change it is > AT the track with Brock standing there doing the adjustments ... I would never put it on a dyno and try to tune it ....I would tune only on the track where it counts .....Now Brock has spend hours and hours on the track testing the map i'm using and it maybe a tiny bit off for my elevation ,air and temp.... I'm betting there will be little gain if any with a Custom tune .. Proof is No other zx14s around here are running my mph or ET with a custom tuned map...The zx14s that do run my numbers or close to my numbers have Brocks maps...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted July 21, 2007 04:55 PM
quote:
quote:
Smokin' did you tune your bike or are you running a map from Brock w/ no adjustments? You've probably already stated the answer in this post but, I didn't want to re-read again. Are you close geographically to Brock? I ask this because there are gains to be had from tuning, especially if your in a different elevation.
I'm sure Brock would reiterate this fact also.
It's Brocks race map ... And no i'm not messing with it . I live no where near Brocks ....The only way i would ever change it is > AT the track with Brock standing there doing the adjustments ... I would never put it on a dyno and try to tune it ....I would tune only on the track where it counts .....Now Brock has spend hours and hours on the track testing the map i'm using and it maybe a tiny bit off for my elevation ,air and temp.... I'm betting there will be little gain if any with a Custom tune .. Proof is No other zx14s around here are running my mph or ET with a custom tuned map...The zx14s that do run my numbers or close to my numbers have Brocks maps...
You run NOS also? What changes do you make to your fuel/ignition map when you spray? Different map or a separate fuel/ign. management device? I know there is a variety of products out there. Just curious, cuz I'm bolting up my Muzzy NOS system as soon as my bodywork is completed (paintjob) and I'm looking for successful ways of compensating for the different fuel requirements needed for the NOS. I have the PC3 Hub & LCD display with map switchability. So I will have access to several maps at the flip of a switch. But, I'm going to be tuning for AFR on the Dyno to set-up those maps, especially concerning the NOS parameters.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted July 21, 2007 05:11 PM
 Edited By: smokinzx14 on 21 Jul 2007 18:19
quote:
quote:
quote:
Smokin' did you tune your bike or are you running a map from Brock w/ no adjustments? You've probably already stated the answer in this post but, I didn't want to re-read again. Are you close geographically to Brock? I ask this because there are gains to be had from tuning, especially if your in a different elevation.
I'm sure Brock would reiterate this fact also.
It's Brocks race map ... And no i'm not messing with it . I live no where near Brocks ....The only way i would ever change it is > AT the track with Brock standing there doing the adjustments ... I would never put it on a dyno and try to tune it ....I would tune only on the track where it counts .....Now Brock has spend hours and hours on the track testing the map i'm using and it maybe a tiny bit off for my elevation ,air and temp.... I'm betting there will be little gain if any with a Custom tune .. Proof is No other zx14s around here are running my mph or ET with a custom tuned map...The zx14s that do run my numbers or close to my numbers have Brocks maps...
You run NOS also? What changes do you make to your fuel/ignition map when you spray? Different map or a separate fuel/ign. management device? I know there is a variety of products out there. Just curious, cuz I'm bolting up my Muzzy NOS system as soon as my bodywork is completed (paintjob) and I'm looking for successful ways of compensating for the different fuel requirements needed for the NOS. I have the PC3 Hub & LCD display with map switchability. So I will have access to several maps at the flip of a switch. But, I'm going to be tuning for AFR on the Dyno to set-up those maps, especially concerning the NOS parameters.
I ran a 30 shot with the Brocks race map but had the p/c on the face plate set at 6 bars or 12% rich in the top 1/3 ....... Tony bike was dyno'ed with his custom map ( 50 shot ) and we only had to run it up to 3 bars or 6% to end up with a good A/F of 12.9 to 13.0 .. ....On Jessejames Bike we have a Muzzy 50 shot and run it all the way up like mine and has been working great ...Jesse also is getting the LCD box , so i made him a map from Brocks race map By adding 6% at 80% 8000 rpms up and added 12 % at 100% throttle 8000 up ...We have not tested it yet ....Smokin..
I should add that we sprayed Tonys with the stock map ( no fuel added ) and it seems the ECU added some fuel ..... A/F only Jumped up from the 13.2 ( his custom map ) to 13.8 on a 50 shot ...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted July 22, 2007 04:59 AM
Keep in mind guys when questioning SmokinZX14 that he appears to only ride his bike on the track, a quarter mile at a time. Not a street bike. He doesn't ride around at 4000 rpm in second gear and hit the throttle, etc....
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted July 22, 2007 05:07 AM
quote:
Keep in mind guys when questioning SmokinZX14 that he appears to only ride his bike on the track, a quarter mile at a time. Not a street bike. He doesn't ride around at 4000 rpm in second gear and hit the throttle, etc....
Well i did ride it on the street and did a lot of roll on with other bikes >>>>>> Till the Judge took away my DL for 6 months ..lol...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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Robmuzzy
Expert Class
Posts: 295
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posted July 22, 2007 08:23 AM
Put a wide band A/F monitor on your bike and you will have the info to tune the map where ever you are.
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted July 22, 2007 09:16 AM
quote:
Put a wide band A/F monitor on your bike and you will have the info to tune the map where ever you are.
That's exactly the same principle as dyno tuning your bike with the ability to adjust for altitude.
I think it all still comes down to dyno tuning your bike for it's mods & "WALA" you have a bike that runs it's best.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted July 22, 2007 12:34 PM
quote:
quote:
Put a wide band A/F monitor on your bike and you will have the info to tune the map where ever you are.
That's exactly the same principle as dyno tuning your bike with the ability to adjust for altitude.
I think it all still comes down to dyno tuning your bike for it's mods & "WALA" you have a bike that runs it's best.
I ran a wide band on my turbo bike and it was very usefull item ...But that was a turbo bike and i need to be real sure i was safe and not take out a motor because of a lean motor....I'm not trying to set any records on my zx14 so a wide band seems like 500 bucks i don't need to spend ... Lets say i run a 8.70 flat and the tuning was off because of the summer heat , now i use the wide band to get my A/F back in line and i put a run of 8.68 ... Well i did go faster and if it were a prostock bike i would be very happy seening that the prostock bike are so close in ETs and that little gain may get me in a win.... But i'm not a prostock racer, i'm just some guy playing around that likes to go fast ....
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted July 22, 2007 01:10 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Put a wide band A/F monitor on your bike and you will have the info to tune the map where ever you are.
That's exactly the same principle as dyno tuning your bike with the ability to adjust for altitude.
I think it all still comes down to dyno tuning your bike for it's mods & "WALA" you have a bike that runs it's best.
I ran a wide band on my turbo bike and it was very usefull item ...But that was a turbo bike and i need to be real sure i was safe and not take out a motor because of a lean motor....I'm not trying to set any records on my zx14 so a wide band seems like 500 bucks i don't need to spend ... Lets say i run a 8.70 flat and the tuning was off because of the summer heat , now i use the wide band to get my A/F back in line and i put a run of 8.68 ... Well i did go faster and if it were a prostock bike i would be very happy seening that the prostock bike are so close in ETs and that little gain may get me in a win.... But i'm not a prostock racer, i'm just some guy playing around that likes to go fast ....
I think we're also looking for two different results, your results are to be had primarily in 100% TP over 8k rpms. I'm more of the road racer variety where I need a broader optimized map. I wouldn't spend 500.00 on a wide band sensor either. I have a dyno at my disposal so that IS my wide band sensor.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted July 22, 2007 04:18 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Put a wide band A/F monitor on your bike and you will have the info to tune the map where ever you are.
That's exactly the same principle as dyno tuning your bike with the ability to adjust for altitude.
I think it all still comes down to dyno tuning your bike for it's mods & "WALA" you have a bike that runs it's best.
I ran a wide band on my turbo bike and it was very usefull item ...But that was a turbo bike and i need to be real sure i was safe and not take out a motor because of a lean motor....I'm not trying to set any records on my zx14 so a wide band seems like 500 bucks i don't need to spend ... Lets say i run a 8.70 flat and the tuning was off because of the summer heat , now i use the wide band to get my A/F back in line and i put a run of 8.68 ... Well i did go faster and if it were a prostock bike i would be very happy seening that the prostock bike are so close in ETs and that little gain may get me in a win.... But i'm not a prostock racer, i'm just some guy playing around that likes to go fast ....
I think we're also looking for two different results, your results are to be had primarily in 100% TP over 8k rpms. I'm more of the road racer variety where I need a broader optimized map. I wouldn't spend 500.00 on a wide band sensor either. I have a dyno at my disposal so that IS my wide band sensor.
zx1kr You are right it's two different type of racing and i have no clue what is needed to make a bike run on that type of track....My bike on the street runs flawless and seems to do well on the drag strip .... I dislike the word CANNED map... What you get from Dyno Jet i would call a canned map ...But brocks map is anything but not canned ...A map made on the dyno and improved on at the track is not a canned map and that is just what Brocks maps are ...So i guess we can agree to disagree... Smokin..
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted July 22, 2007 04:54 PM
A "canned" map is a map that is put into a different bike than the bike that it was developed in. It's not meant as anything more than that. Last year I had 2 guys come into my shop, They had identical bikes and wanted identical motor work. When they were completed, I had them break in their bikes. The one that had broke in his first got it dyno tuned first. The 2nd guy decided to just run his buddies map & do a HP pass to compare #'s. He came up 5hp short of his buddies identical bike. He then decided to tune the "canned" map, he pulled 1 hp more than his buddy's ride. They pulled 100hp so there was a 5% correction. As is Brock's map when I installed it in my 14 , I saw room for improvement sometimes over 10% in correction. This is not anything unusual. Brocks maps are tuned at a higher altitude so when they're run at sea level they will have a margin of correction that can mean 5 to 10 hp in areas of that map. This also applies for my maps & Dynojet's maps & any canned map. The only time that a canned map will not have such a variation is a map used in a full closed loop EFI system such as Daytona TwinTecs Closed loop EFI for Hi-Perf. HDs' These maps when set up for optimum AFR will be able to be dropped into a similar engine config. and work almost identical. They are significantly more complex to set-up than a PC3 map though and I don't know of any sportbikes running anything like this.
These corrections on a PC map are fairly easy to tune for Full Throttle apps on a 1/4mile track. Not unlike changing main jets on a carb. It's the partial throttle spots & under load charactoristics that aren't correctable by seat of the pants at any track. That's where the dyno earns it keep.
I understand your loyalty to Brock but, I'm not trying to shake that. Just explaining why anyone that wants their bike running at it's optimum would think about a tune. As I said before, ask Brock. I'm sure he will concur.
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87gtNOS
Zone Head
Posts: 620
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posted July 22, 2007 06:17 PM
quote:
i'm just some guy playing around that likes to go fast ....
Right on!!!!!
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01 ZX12R
07 ZX14 - YEAH BABY!
03 ZX9R-traded in for the 14!!! June 07!
05 636-traded in for the 9 Sept 05
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted July 22, 2007 06:22 PM
YEE HAA!!!!!
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Pat Dietrich
Expert Class
Posts: 148
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posted July 23, 2007 08:04 AM
I just dynoed mine with the track map and the maxton just to see the difference. We opted to go with the track since the maxton is based on getting the absolute most out of 5th and 6th where all I do is 1/4 mile passes. Bike made 184.12 which I thought was real good considering it has 700 miles. This was with a modified filter. Next time I'll take it out and see what happens. But Brocks map was spot on except down low where it needed tweaked. The a/f was damn near flat from 4000 on up at 12:9 -13:0 . Didn't touch it!
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted July 23, 2007 09:58 AM
12.9 to 13 at 4k is good at FT. If it's in the lower TP's that's alittle on the rich side.
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