icdumpeple
Novice Class
Posts: 46
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posted July 08, 2007 05:31 PM
Air pressure sensor will only tell the computer if the air box is pressurized not how much air is flowing. It doesn't know when you change the exhaust or remove the flies in order to alow more flow at any given RPM. I may be wrong here but I think when the FI system is given a new map it is a base line for the system to work from at any given RPM based on the info it receives from the sensors.
  
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fury
Expert Class
Posts: 427
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posted July 08, 2007 05:40 PM
If the system runs now with wide open throttle plates why wouldnt it after I mod it?
I dont have the answer, we will see what happens.
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fury
Expert Class
Posts: 427
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posted July 10, 2007 03:34 PM
parts ordered monday.
getting close!
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ZX11D
Zone Head
Internet Police
Posts: 674
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posted July 10, 2007 04:15 PM
Will be watching ya. At least you dare to try 
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'94 ZX-11
'07 ZX-14
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black14
Novice Class
Posts: 61
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posted July 10, 2007 04:27 PM
 Edited By: black14 on 10 Jul 2007 17:32
quote:
Air pressure sensor will only tell the computer if the air box is pressurized not how much air is flowing. It doesn't know when you change the exhaust or remove the flies in order to alow more flow at any given RPM. I may be wrong here but I think when the FI system is given a new map it is a base line for the system to work from at any given RPM based on the info it receives from the sensors.
Actually it looks like the air pressure sensor is after the main butterflies so that it is able to tell the computer the airflow. Probably more of a vacuum sensor except when there is ramair and full throttle opening. In fact, there is an atmosphere sensor in addition to the pressure sensor so the computer should be able to compensate nicely whether the flies are open or not there at all. I believe that this has been the case in tests using a/f meters. I suspect that the lean running is an EPA thing and not a miscalculation.
Should be simple math to indicate airflow using rpm and air pressure or vacuum. Mapping would get you around the EPA lean condition for more power and very likely necessary if the intake and exhaust dynamics change, a pipe or velocity stacks.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that the temperature of the air is a factor that can be modified using a resistor in series perhaps 300+ ohms to richen the a/f by tricking the computer into thinking that the air is colder. Remap the system for a few pennies.
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Obba
Expert Class
Posts: 455
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posted July 10, 2007 04:42 PM
Well, Fury seems really intent on his mission, and seems to be making some progress albeit small.
I'd say that the guys who are writing him off, should put thier money where there mouth is and cough up some cash if he does indeed do it.
So com'n guys "Double Dare?"
But i can't work out how he's going to get around any mapping, unless that's what all this Air FLow stuff is about.
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted July 12, 2007 11:31 AM
But the current solution takes so little time and is free. You just have to take a day or two in order to re-acclimate to the bike. I understand doing this if you are trying to build a business around this like the TRE, so in that regard, it makes sense to have this kind of drive to find the plug and play solution.
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted July 12, 2007 01:47 PM
if you ever looked at the mapping for butterflies out, you would see increased fuel requirements in certain rpm ranges. since the ecu does not make those adjustments when you pull the flies, it certainly will not make those adjustments when you make the motor open them. i have a power commander lcd with different maps on my bike so i can make changes on the fly, but i would pull over first. i admire your tenacity at solving this issue but really ,you are going the long way, and if you think your setup is going to make more power than a brock mapped flies out setup, i suggest buying a dyno and living with it like he did. read the brock diaries.
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2006 Black ZX-14,6 inches over,16/42, flies out,BMC Street Filter,Brock's Street Meg,Brock's Radial Mount Strap,PClll with Race map,Dynojet LCD w/Techmount, ZX-14 fender eliminator,Pilot Power2CTs,Speedohealer,Pazzo Levers,Cox Radiator Guard, Garmin Nuvi 265WT
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted July 13, 2007 04:34 AM
good luck fury.
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted July 13, 2007 07:22 AM
i dont see what the big deal is. If the man wants to find an answer, so be it. Im sure if brock had the time or a device to work the flies. He would have made a map for them.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted July 13, 2007 07:53 AM
BTD is right though, no matter what, even if Fury finds out how to do this -- and I think he will, he still doesn't have any way to change the fuel delivery qty at speeds. He also won't make the same or more power as pulling the flies altogether with a PC3 and a proper map. If he's doing it because he thinks he can and wants that satisfaction, kudo's to him!
The advantage on the other hand, is that if he's successful, he'll have a TRE that doesn't break the GPI...now that's something worth talking about.
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FYYFF!!!
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted July 13, 2007 12:39 PM
Fury said
"Guy's.
I am only trying to keep it friendly for the wife.
I like having her ass on the back of the bike.
Alont with her 36 d's"
If he comes up with a switch that opens the flies and uses brocks
map, it should run just like yours.
Then when he switches to the flies closed he may run a little rich but it should
be very controllable and smooth for the wife. RIGHT?
Best of both worlds.
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Port_Angeles_NINJA
Expert Class
Posts: 388
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posted July 14, 2007 12:36 AM
Or could his switch change maps at the same time? I have seen something about the PCIII taking inputs from various devices on the bike. Can it be set up to change maps based on an input? I think he has a good idea, but needs to realize his fuel map will have to change also.
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Red/Black 85' GPZ900
Blue 07' ZX14
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted July 14, 2007 05:21 AM
"Then when he switches to the flies closed he may run a little rich "
i'm no expert but the numbers i see look like it would be wayyyy rich down low using flies out map with flies in
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2006 Black ZX-14,6 inches over,16/42, flies out,BMC Street Filter,Brock's Street Meg,Brock's Radial Mount Strap,PClll with Race map,Dynojet LCD w/Techmount, ZX-14 fender eliminator,Pilot Power2CTs,Speedohealer,Pazzo Levers,Cox Radiator Guard, Garmin Nuvi 265WT
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted July 14, 2007 10:01 AM
yea that may be something to use. The hub can change maps for nitrous and turbos. So he may have to map it twice. But he might be able to use the hub to change his maps for closed flies and open flies.
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Port_Angeles_Ninja
Expert Class
Posts: 388
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posted July 14, 2007 10:59 AM
Sounds like that would work, if the hub can change maps for nitruos all it knows is that some input is on so it changes maps. As far as controlling the stepper motor and faking out the ECU, there are commercially available "Smart Relays" that could handle those tasks and send the input to the hub.
I think i'm on fury's switchable flies bandwagon now
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Red/Black 85' GPZ900
Blue 07' ZX14
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Port_Angeles_Ninja
Expert Class
Posts: 388
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posted July 14, 2007 11:07 AM
The control system part i know how to do, but i don't have any experience with tuning/building engines as a lot of people here obviously do. So:
Would there be a significant difference in airflow between removing the flys (which i assume just involves removing the subthrottle plates from the actuator shaft) and opening them fully? It doesn't seem like ithere would, but as i said i lack the real world experience to be sure.
Thanks
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Red/Black 85' GPZ900
Blue 07' ZX14
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted July 14, 2007 07:53 PM
you're going to have to take two actions. switch the flies open, then change the map. hmmmmm......
or take out the flies and run the correct map all the time.....wait.....this is way too fucking easy..... no i will try to solve world hunger instead.....cmon
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2006 Black ZX-14,6 inches over,16/42, flies out,BMC Street Filter,Brock's Street Meg,Brock's Radial Mount Strap,PClll with Race map,Dynojet LCD w/Techmount, ZX-14 fender eliminator,Pilot Power2CTs,Speedohealer,Pazzo Levers,Cox Radiator Guard, Garmin Nuvi 265WT
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stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted July 17, 2007 10:33 AM
quote:
you're going to have to take two actions. switch the flies open, then change the map. hmmmmm......
or take out the flies and run the correct map all the time.....wait.....this is way too fucking easy..... no i will try to solve world hunger instead.....cmon
is it solved?
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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3Boysand3Bikes
Expert Class
Posts: 382
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posted July 18, 2007 10:16 AM
I agree that if he wants to spend the time and effort to figure this out.. that is his goal... and I am not going to tell him not to do it... The only thing that he needs to listen to is this... he keeps using the, "trying to keep it friendly for the wife".... (he also adds that he wants to keep the fuel mileage stock)... but if he would listen to those of us who have removed the flies.. that have been riding bikes for over 20 years apiece.... he will realize that you DO NOT lose gas mileage... and the bike is actually just as controllable, if not better after the flies are out. If the 14 is the first bike someone has ever ridden... I believe that it is still better with the flies out. Now if someone is 18 years old... it may be best to keep the flies in because they will be racing around.. and with no experience... the bike will take them out. But for riding two up... flies out is better than the zx12 was stock and is just as good as the Hayabusa for smooth throttle. Plus if you need to pass someone... the power is there. I can't believe that riding with a wife on the back and the flies closed is as safe as flies out, if you are going to be in any traffic at all. That is coming from 20 plus years of riding... Drag racing... wheelies... commutes.... and a lot of 2 up riding with all kinds of bikes. The bike is a bogging pig with two riders and flies in. Is the plan that when you are going to pass, the flies will be opened? That is more risky than anything. I wish you luck.. and believe that you can do it... but I don't believe that there is a real life application for the 14. I have ridden over 100 miles in the rain... and again, the GSXr1000 is going to lose traction before the 14 with flies out will. I have NEVER had a problem with a choppy or jumpy throttle. Just more input... and again... I envy the ability that you have to work with this type of stuff. I hope that you are having fun.
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted July 20, 2007 06:29 AM
hey, i was waiting for dynojet to come up with something, they didn't, so i pulled the flies and never looked back. as far as for 2 up it is perfect now.
i'm not knocking what anyone does to get where they are going, more power to them. thats what makes this country great. fury, i wish you all the success in the world and at least there is a back up plan if you get tired of re-engineering the bike.
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2006 Black ZX-14,6 inches over,16/42, flies out,BMC Street Filter,Brock's Street Meg,Brock's Radial Mount Strap,PClll with Race map,Dynojet LCD w/Techmount, ZX-14 fender eliminator,Pilot Power2CTs,Speedohealer,Pazzo Levers,Cox Radiator Guard, Garmin Nuvi 265WT
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fury
Expert Class
Posts: 427
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posted July 26, 2007 03:15 AM
Edited By: fury on 26 Jul 2007 04:16
Sorry for the lack of response.
I am awaiting 1 module. It was back ordered.
I should have it this week.
When I picked up the tools they had in for me I seen another zx14 all done to the nines.
Extended swingarm and chrome all over the dang place.
Apparently sent to California to have everything done.
No giggle juice though.
The tire is a monster.
pics to follow.
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fury
Expert Class
Posts: 427
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posted July 29, 2007 03:30 PM
I have made head way.
The fly's open and close at my command.
Currently I am trying something to solve my fuel needs.
This is going to work slick.
I am trying to keep it really simple.
No wire splicing or nasty connections.
Something everyone can do.
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3boysand3bikes
Expert Class
Posts: 382
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posted July 29, 2007 08:55 PM
Good to hear that you are getting what you want... I hope that it works out.
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted July 30, 2007 08:23 AM
fury have you tried the relays on the hub to change the fuel curve. With brock pipes he gives you maps for flies and without. The hub could hold both maps. The relay in the hub could move the flies with what you have. Its an idea.
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