blueford
Needs a job
Posts: 2984
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posted April 03, 2007 12:59 PM
Smokey says, why didn't you consult me?
quote:
I can only tell you what i know and have seen from years of running turbo motors. All turbo motors have this problem and most that are racing have taken out rod bearings... Guys that just ride on the street don't realy have this problem because they are never full out like the drag racers ...
Well, some observations, he spend $8,500.on his turbo job and it lasted 5 months.
As a drag racer, he wanted to run before he could walk, doesn't know shit about engine building, but fuck it, slap a turbo and let "er rip!
Some WOULDA, COULDA, SHOULDA advise, step 1, learn how to build engines, step 2
avoid posers with turbos at the malt shop, step 3 get advise from REAL drag racers, who build engines!
  
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sands
Expert Class
Posts: 151
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posted April 03, 2007 03:53 PM
smokinzx14,
Interesting and useful info....What about folks that you see doing full throttle throttle blips in neutral ? Can that cause some oil starvation because of the increased pickup of rpm ?
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www.nonationalid.com
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted April 03, 2007 04:09 PM
i think its time to pull the oil pressure sending unit.. replace with a pressure gauge... but is the ECU getting any signals from the current setup with idjet light... i would think not.. but i have no service manual ..
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zxbob
Pro
Posts: 1692
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posted April 03, 2007 04:24 PM
quote:
i think its time to pull the oil pressure sending unit.. replace with a pressure gauge... but is the ECU getting any signals from the current setup with idjet light... i would think not.. but i have no service manual ..
Thats a good idea .... Since the bikes have a "tip over" switch, I dont think the ECU
is seeing anything !
Its just for the lite.
Bob
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted April 03, 2007 05:18 PM
 Edited By: smokinzx14 on 3 Apr 2007 18:43
quote:
smokinzx14,
Interesting and useful info....What about folks that you see doing full throttle throttle blips in neutral ? Can that cause some oil starvation because of the increased pickup of rpm ?
Well for one i would never do that ..But like you i have seen many people do it and never have seen a motor blow up because of it but i think it would cut the life of the motor some ... Doing when the engine is cold would be the worst ...Never never Rev a cold motor, always bring the motor to full warm up first ..While it's not good to blip a motor to the red line I don't think it would cause starvation because of the short time that takes place...If you held it wide open for a long time it could ...Remember that a bike going down the 1/4 mile put a lot of G force on the oil causing it to go to the back of the pan and in time will uncover the oil pickup....In neutral that G force doesn't take place ..Smokin...
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted April 03, 2007 05:41 PM
i didn't see anywhere that ifly's lite came on... i know from oil change's that my lite comes on just from the time the filter needs to fill with oil (my lite test)... Pumps covered but no pressure cause of air ...but i remember the dude that spun a bearing a ways back {everyone called BS} stated his only blinked.... anybody knows what pressure the zx14 is runnin ... my next oil change i'm installing a gauge .......fer sure
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted April 03, 2007 05:42 PM
quote:
quote:
i think its time to pull the oil pressure sending unit.. replace with a pressure gauge... but is the ECU getting any signals from the current setup with idjet light... i would think not.. but i have no service manual ..
Thats a good idea .... Since the bikes have a "tip over" switch, I dont think the ECU
is seeing anything !
Its just for the lite.
Bob
RUN COPPER LINE... don't use the plastic shit with gauge
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stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted April 03, 2007 07:49 PM
I heard "its NOT bullet-proof" heh 
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted April 03, 2007 08:28 PM
Well i can say this. Mine ran out of oil. The oil light blinked on. I would have thought the light would have stayed on with know oil in it. I have the motor apart at least the head and pan. See some light shavings. Nothing like his. I need a few tools to take the alt rotor and clutch basket off. When i get them ill ck the bearings. I have some scaring in 3 of the cylinders. What he has is more than running out of oil.
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1badzx12r
Needs a life
Posts: 8321
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posted April 03, 2007 08:36 PM
quote:
Well i can say this. Mine ran out of oil. The oil light blinked on. I would have thought the light would have stayed on with know oil in it. I have the motor apart at least the head and pan. See some light shavings. Nothing like his. I need a few tools to take the alt rotor and clutch basket off. When i get them ill ck the bearings. I have some scaring in 3 of the cylinders. What he has is more than running out of oil.
how did you run out of oil...
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stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted April 03, 2007 08:46 PM
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted April 04, 2007 07:13 AM
to make the story short. I hit the pan on the highway. The drain plug and the threads tore out and the wheel locked on the road. I was able to get the bike to start again. But had a tapping and it didnt rev the same. I had shavings in the new oil but not like his. But still waiting to see how the crank looks.
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ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
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posted April 04, 2007 09:13 PM
Edited By: ninja14 on 4 Apr 2007 22:15
Wait....
Let's say there is a gallon of oil in the pan - for easy math
The bike runs - say 10 sec qtr(and not full throttle the whole time) - for easy math
So in 10 seconds it can pump a gallon of oil - that's 6GPM or 360GPH.........and none came back in time to go back through the pick-up........
....that's some serious flow.
And as for not being full throttle on the streets........there are plenty of roads with straights longer than a qtr mile....
Sloshing is not such a big deal as the 14 pan has a small deep sump.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted April 05, 2007 10:27 AM
quote:
Wait....
Let's say there is a gallon of oil in the pan - for easy math
The bike runs - say 10 sec qtr(and not full throttle the whole time) - for easy math
So in 10 seconds it can pump a gallon of oil - that's 6GPM or 360GPH.........and none came back in time to go back through the pick-up........
....that's some serious flow.
And as for not being full throttle on the streets........there are plenty of roads with straights longer than a qtr mile....
Sloshing is not such a big deal as the 14 pan has a small deep sump.
Sure some of the oil came back ....... with air bubbles in it !!!! do that a few times and see what happens .. And that little sump as you call it is just that a little sump that holds a 1/4 of a QT and is pleanty for a stock 200 hp motorcycle ...Now turn that up to 300 hp and see what happens ..Trust me on this > you do what he did at the track and your oil pan will look like his ..There is a reason they make deep pan and swinging pickup and it not for looks ...Smokin..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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ninja12
Needs a job
Posts: 3310
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posted April 05, 2007 10:35 AM
quote:
to make the story short. I hit the pan on the highway. The drain plug and the threads tore out and the wheel locked on the road. I was able to get the bike to start again. But had a tapping and it didnt rev the same. I had shavings in the new oil but not like his. But still waiting to see how the crank looks.
Pull the pan before you make that call.
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SteddyTeddy
Pro
Posts: 1664
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posted April 05, 2007 10:42 AM
I believe Dean said he was running 6+ qts in his ZRX but he also had a dry sump pan and external oil tank. He spun a rod bearing or 2 until he found the right combination.
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ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
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posted April 06, 2007 04:55 PM
The turbo is a minor draw to the lube system - a few ounces of volume that is fed from the press sender tube and dumped right at the oil pick-up in the sump. Basically this would have happened stock - except there was something else at work to make this happen. I'm not seeing starvation due to RPM b/c many of us have held it at redline for much longer than10 seconds w/o problems........it would have been engineered for it.
Was it the almost 300RWHP?....have we found a weak link that Kawi does not know about - b/c they did not do turbo test ......?
Now I'm worried just a little that the few of us may find out the hard way.....
......go for it Bob :-)
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bigdtd
Needs a job
Interceptors
Posts: 4209
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posted April 06, 2007 06:19 PM
Edited By: bigdtd on 6 Apr 2007 19:20
boo hoo your bike makes 300 hp and you break stuff
kawi is supposed to plan for that ?
spend some extra $ or time planning
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2006 Black ZX-14,6 inches over,16/42, flies out,BMC Street Filter,Brock's Street Meg,Brock's Radial Mount Strap,PClll with Race map,Dynojet LCD w/Techmount, ZX-14 fender eliminator,Pilot Power2CTs,Speedohealer,Pazzo Levers,Cox Radiator Guard, Garmin Nuvi 265WT
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted April 06, 2007 07:06 PM
Maybe you have reached the limit for the stock crank and rods. After all you did run the bike more than once. Maybe that was all it would stand. Im sure youll bounce back. It suck that it takes things like this to happen to learn more about what the motor will do or handle.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted April 06, 2007 08:01 PM
Edited By: smokinzx14 on 6 Apr 2007 21:29
I don't think some of you guys understand...I build race motors for a living and have seen this very thing happen over and over ....He could have had trick rods, trick crank and the same damn thing would have happened without oil.. He said he spun all the way down the track so the motor was spinning in overtime ...The oil never had time to return to the sump and pickup ....If they was oil there it had bubbles of air in it ...Bearing don't oil well with air of any type .. At 300 hp he needs more oil than 200 hp , more oil is needed so he doesn't pump the pan dry and with more oil it will keep the oil cooler .. Heat is HP and Turbos make crazy heat and crazy power .... The stock parts maybe at their limit at 300 hp or 350 hp but you need to oil it first... Oil will not drain back to the pan any faster just cause you put a turbo on the bike!! The turbo is causing the motor to spin up twice as fast as it would stock and the oil pump is doing the same BUT the oil will only drain back at one speed ( slow)... Only way to speed up oil retun is to add a crank scrapper and a good windage tray .Other things that can be done but will still not speed up the oil return are , Restrict oil flow to the head , and more psi and volume of oil ....But you have to enlarge the oil pan to carry more oil ....If a turbo is mapped correctly ( so not to be lean) and it has pleanty of oil the stock parts will hold up to 300 hp or more with no problems......Yes there is a hp limit for all parts in a motor , stock parts as a rule thumb you can increase the power out put by 25% of the stock power safely .... So if our motors make 200 at the crank stock you can increase the power 25% and that would be 50 hp for a total of 250 hp safely .... at 300 hp you are pushing it some....With good rods and pistons and oiling system you can go passed that 250 hp level ...Trust me there are NO turbo Busas making 500 hp on stock parts , well not for long anyway ... Even well built motors have a time limit ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
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posted April 06, 2007 09:46 PM
I'm new to this so.....
If the pump is sucking up and pushing aerated oil the bubble will compress and the pressure would drop......would the oil press light come on?.....or maybe it has to go damn low for the sensor to light it......too late.
I guess you are meaning the motor spins up so fast b/c of its increased power.....wether it be a turbo, sc or nitrous would not matter. Still....the max RPM is set by the limiter and the oil pump moves only so much disp per rev.......so the real problem is the slow drain-back. I can see that as I've seen plenty of car motors for quicker drainback .
I would agree that stock parts (on all kinds of engines) can handle 25 or 30 percent more......IF everythng else is working properly(tuned) I'll keep that in mind.....I am shooting for about 6 to7psi on pump gas, but may back it down for actual use since that will put out about 290 ponies.......
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted April 07, 2007 05:00 AM
ok with everything that has been said. Whats the the solution with out getting a bigger pan. I read somewhere they moved the oil cooler and filter to the back of the zx6.
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smokinzx14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted April 07, 2007 05:11 AM
quote:
I'm new to this so.....
If the pump is sucking up and pushing aerated oil the bubble will compress and the pressure would drop......would the oil press light come on?.....or maybe it has to go damn low for the sensor to light it......too late.
I guess you are meaning the motor spins up so fast b/c of its increased power.....wether it be a turbo, sc or nitrous would not matter. Still....the max RPM is set by the limiter and the oil pump moves only so much disp per rev.......so the real problem is the slow drain-back. I can see that as I've seen plenty of car motors for quicker drainback .
I would agree that stock parts (on all kinds of engines) can handle 25 or 30 percent more......IF everythng else is working properly(tuned) I'll keep that in mind.....I am shooting for about 6 to7psi on pump gas, but may back it down for actual use since that will put out about 290 ponies.......
The low oil pressure lites on most cars is set at 5 psi.... Lets say the zx14 is the same 5 psi .... At 11000 rpm 5 psi is not going to be a good thing... These are a few things we need to find out about > what PSI is the oil pressure switch set to and what is the pop off pressure of the oil pump set to, also we would need to know the flow rate in gpm. With these numbers we could fine out how much oil is needed in the pan or oil system in a turbo motor . Most race motor oil pumps have 10 psi for every 1000 RPMs , So a motor turning a max of 7000 rpm would see the oil psi around 70 psi ... Most race pumps have a pop off valve set around 80 to 90 psi ... Oil pressures above 80 to 90 psi can do damage to Rod and Main bearing by way of hydraulic pressure.... Hot oil at 100+ psi can and will cut into a bearing like a cutting torch...Babbit bearings are real soft for a reason > as to not do damage to the crank by embeding any dirt into the bearing and not scaring the crank shaft ...Most factory rod bearing are made of a tin shell covered with copper and a top coating of soft babbit ... Race bearing skip the babbit coating because the motors never see 3000 miles of driving before oil changes like street motors.. Back to the turbo zx14 motors , at 6 to 7 pounds of boost with a good tune up should live with no problems for many years on the street with limited boost times... Meaning don't hold it WOT for long times like a mile or miles ... short bursts with cool down times between it will live a long and happy life ...I would still add a larger oil pan because extra oil is a coolant....More oil = cooler oil temps and longer bearing life ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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SteddyTeddy
Pro
Posts: 1664
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posted April 07, 2007 06:16 AM
quote:
boo hoo your bike makes 300 hp and you break stuff
kawi is supposed to plan for that ?
spend some extra $ or time planning
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stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted April 07, 2007 06:29 AM
quote:
quote:
boo hoo your bike makes 300 hp and you break stuff
kawi is supposed to plan for that ?
spend some extra $ or time planning
+2
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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