raband
Expert Class
Posts: 121
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posted March 18, 2007 12:40 AM
False Neutral
Hey guys
Love the bike - more and more each day 
One query:
When changing up gears without the clutch I'm hitting a false neutral 2 or 3 times out of 10 changing from 5th to 6th. how heavy I'm going on the throttle doesn't seem to matter; neither does speed/revs.
Have also (once) found a false neutral going into 4th from third while useing the clutch.
Has been happening for a while but have been trying to work my way around different styles of changing to fix/prevent it but to no avail. Got serious last night when it happened under a pretty heavy load - went from 5th to false (gearbox grinding) then caught gears back in 5th again - causing a severe loss of traction and wheelspin on the rear - lucky it was a straight line ride - corner would have thrown me.
It's definately not that I am not pushing the lever up far enough nor my timing between coming off the gas, shifting and coming back on the gas- have tried ramming it into 6th but still does it at different times.
Anyone know of anything similar? - solutions? - warranty issue? -
I imagine that it would still be finding false neutrals at the same rate if I was using a PC shift kit - and having it happen while changing from 5th to 6th at anything near 100% could be pretty severe.
____________
PS - its black - its f'kn sexy and it pulls better than a dentist
  
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nightmare
Pro
ACP Racing
Posts: 1797
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posted March 18, 2007 01:23 AM
I am trying to get a better understanding of what you are talking about! You are talking about the bike hesitating to go into gear and not gear indicator right? I think you are speaking of the clutch not engaging until late right?
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2006 ZX14 Ninja "SWINE FLU"
60ft 1.23
8th Mile 5.16
ACP Racing
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raband
Expert Class
Posts: 121
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posted March 18, 2007 02:07 AM
When I change up from 5th to 6th without using the clutch (off throttle - shift up - on throttle) instead of going into 6th like usual, sometimes (20-30% of the time) it's as if the change gets stuck half way between gears and theres nothing at all going to the rear wheel - gear crunching and noises going on downstairs.
eventually (maybe less that an second - sometimes enough time to engage the clutch, sometimes not) the gears grab and I'm back in 5th.
If I don't manage to back off the throttle or grab the clutch before it grabs gear it's basically like riding in 5th, pulling the clutch in, redlining, dumping the clutch - something that could have very bad effects if it happens at the wrong time. I have no idea what would have happened if the rear tyre had of gripped the last time it happened instead of spinning.
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PS - its black - its f'kn sexy and it pulls better than a dentist
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blackbullet76
Pro
Posts: 1134
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posted March 18, 2007 04:18 AM
I would just use the clutch
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raband
Expert Class
Posts: 121
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posted March 18, 2007 04:29 AM
quote:
I would just use the clutch
If thats what the 14's require then I guess I will need to alter my riding to cope with it, but no other bike I've owned has had this problem and I ride clutchless over 50% of the time (clutchless 90% when going harder than normal road riding). If no one else has this problem then I don't think it is the 14's, but just my 14 in partcular.
Anyone else not use a clutch on upchanging?
If so - have you ever had this problem?
____________
PS - its black - its f'kn sexy and it pulls better than a dentist
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sweeper
Parking Attendant
Posts: 22
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posted March 18, 2007 04:59 AM
I typically do not use the clutch on upshifts and have not experienced what you have. My shifts are all very smooth and have never had a false neutral. Of course now I've jinxed myself by saying that. Have you gone to synthetic yet? I use Silkolene and all my bikes have shifted like butter with that stuff.
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raband
Expert Class
Posts: 121
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posted March 18, 2007 05:05 AM
No - not synthetic yet.
Now that you mention it, I think it has only started happening since my first service - either the oil then could be an issue or it is just that I didn't really start riding the bike til after the service/run in (didn't ride like a nancy before, but may not have been doing clutchless changes til after)
Oil has been mentioned in transmission issues in other bikes (ZX12's included), but haven't seen it mentioned on the 14 before. Seems to be mentioned on downshifts rather than upshifts though and that would me with the clutch.
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PS - its black - its f'kn sexy and it pulls better than a dentist
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Bobs07zx14Black
Novice Class
Posts: 68
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posted March 18, 2007 05:08 AM
Mine has done the same on several occasions...it's a Black 07.
My Honda XX also had a false neutral between 5 and 6
I think maybe I just get lazy and don' pull it up all the way..
Bike only has 125 miles..
You are not alone......Bob
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Bob
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raband
Expert Class
Posts: 121
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posted March 18, 2007 05:16 AM
Yeah - I also had one on the XX, but was also while using the clutch I think (and maybe on downshift)
I was thinking similar with being lazy, but actually pull it up in a more definate way when not using the clutch than I do when using the clutch.
____________
PS - its black - its f'kn sexy and it pulls better than a dentist
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1bigkaw
Novice Class
Posts: 59
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posted March 18, 2007 07:06 AM
Happened to me yesterday between 5th and 6th also. I remember it happening a time or two last summer also. But only a couple of times and always when using the clutch. Oh ya, did I say I snuck up on a Busa yesterday and then showed him how loud a TiForce pipe sounds at a buck fifty flying past. I think he knew his place, never saw him again.
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Xtremespeed
Expert Class
Posts: 415
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posted March 18, 2007 08:38 AM
I don't use the clutch 99% of the time. I haven't seen this yet. How do you shift? I was taught different than a lot of people, and have been given a hard time about it on several occasions, but I usually don't experience tranny and clutch problems like a lot of others. I apply pressure to the shifter just before I am ready to shift, let off the throttle just enough for it to go into gear, continue holding pressure on the shifter until I am back in the throttle well, and then let the pressure off. A lot of people just kick the shifter up and release it before they are back in the throttle. I'm not implying you don't know how to shift, just sharing my style. I have ridden friends bikes that would jump out of gear everytime (already damaged tranny) and was able to run the 1/4 with no problems. I have since taught a lot of them my style, and after getting used to it, most people have better results. If you don't shift like this, you may give it a try and see if it help your false neutrals. Just a thought.
____________
When in doubt, Flick it!
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WARBIRD
Needs a job
Posts: 2739
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posted March 18, 2007 09:21 AM
Quote:
"I think maybe I just get lazy and don' pull it up all the way.."
Be firm on your upshift............and put synthetic oil in, those two things will make a real difference........... 
.
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WARBIRD
Needs a job
Posts: 2739
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posted March 18, 2007 09:24 AM
I used Bob's quote because I agree with what he said. I think that happens alot. Just a lazy shift..................no big deal.
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blackbullet76
Pro
Posts: 1134
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posted March 18, 2007 10:04 AM
All I know is I used to do clutchless shifting on my honda 400ex 4-wheeler and I've replaced some of the syncros and a few gears in it twice. Im sure that was the reason for that. So, I don't do that on my bike, my old one and my new one.
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jw
Novice Class
Posts: 81
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posted March 18, 2007 01:22 PM
A false neutral between gears is a bad thing. Usually bent shifter forks or rounded gear teeth. Good luck.
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ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
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posted March 18, 2007 11:15 PM
I've had it only a few times in 10K+miles. Once from 1 to 2 and it didn't go in until the motor came up about 1500RPM's or so and the bike almost shot out from under me.....not fun......
I go w/o the clutch some......more up than down .......
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted March 19, 2007 08:49 AM
 Edited By: dubious on 19 Mar 2007 09:50
Brock sells stronger shift shafts, which the shift forks are bolted to for the guys with big boots!
he recommends them, as sometimes the stockers flex, and do not enguage the gear completely
never missed any shifts .....except a couple due to rider error ....dooy...my fault :P
I didn't roll the power off enough.....
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Nixter
Expert Class
Posts: 152
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posted March 19, 2007 04:54 PM
Never had it happpen on my 14. It kind of sounds like you are maybe not lifting it all the way. Have you tried rotating the shift lever down a notch? Sometimes that is all you need to get a real positive shift.
____________
2012 ZX14R - Black
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raband
Expert Class
Posts: 121
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posted March 19, 2007 05:52 PM
quote:
Never had it happpen on my 14. It kind of sounds like you are maybe not lifting it all the way. Have you tried rotating the shift lever down a notch? Sometimes that is all you need to get a real positive shift.
Am going to really try to analyse my shifting over the next few days.
Am starting to think an oil change could either sort the problem or fix it - bike is very tappity (valves) for first 10 minutes or so until it;s really warmed up which would lend a bit of credit to the bike needing a different oil.
____________
PS - its black - its f'kn sexy and it pulls better than a dentist
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sweeper
Parking Attendant
Posts: 22
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posted March 19, 2007 06:11 PM
I refer to what you do as preloading the shifter and yes it does make for smoother shifts normally. Good point!
quote:
I don't use the clutch 99% of the time. I haven't seen this yet. How do you shift? I was taught different than a lot of people, and have been given a hard time about it on several occasions, but I usually don't experience tranny and clutch problems like a lot of others. I apply pressure to the shifter just before I am ready to shift, let off the throttle just enough for it to go into gear, continue holding pressure on the shifter until I am back in the throttle well, and then let the pressure off. A lot of people just kick the shifter up and release it before they are back in the throttle. I'm not implying you don't know how to shift, just sharing my style. I have ridden friends bikes that would jump out of gear everytime (already damaged tranny) and was able to run the 1/4 with no problems. I have since taught a lot of them my style, and after getting used to it, most people have better results. If you don't shift like this, you may give it a try and see if it help your false neutrals. Just a thought.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted March 19, 2007 07:59 PM
Hah...every Busa had the same exact issue..between 5th and 6th.
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FYYFF!!!
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raband
Expert Class
Posts: 121
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posted March 19, 2007 08:36 PM
quote:
Hah...every Busa had the same exact issue..between 5th and 6th.
What was the problem and fix?
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PS - its black - its f'kn sexy and it pulls better than a dentist
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted March 20, 2007 03:04 AM
No fix, just a lot of false neutral's 'tween 5 and 6...check the Busa sites.
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FYYFF!!!
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Xtremespeed
Expert Class
Posts: 415
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posted March 20, 2007 04:12 PM
Edited By: Xtremespeed on 20 Mar 2007 17:13
Thanks sweeper.
Actually the point I was trying to make though, was not so much the preload, but to continue to hold upward pressure on the shifter until after you have twisted back on the throttle. This is the biggest part of what I do and was taught, that is different than what most people seem to be taught or practice.
I can't think of a false neutral that I have experienced that wasn't related to a lazy shift.
I had a friend with a busa that complained about it constantly. After I rode his bike for an
extended period of time and didn't experience it, he was convinced that the tranny was damaged, and that the only reason I didn't have the problem was that my shifting style
was developed to ride junky ass Kawasaki's that didn't shift right anyways. He can rationalize it anyway he likes. Maybe there is something to be said for my shifting style.
Most people I think will just dismiss this idea, because they have never rode this way. If, however, you practice it and get used to it, you will find the bike shifts smoother, doesn't false neutral, and tranny parts live a lot longer with a lot less wear. Give it a try. If nothing else, you will find out if your 14 really has a problem or not.
____________
When in doubt, Flick it!
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