smiddy1
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posted December 11, 2006 03:27 PM
 Edited By: smiddy1 on 11 Dec 2006 15:28
Very Interesting! Closed loop pc
Why on earth can't, or shall I say WON"T make this for a 14 or any other sport bike as far as that goes. Maybe it would make thier dynos obsolete, doubt it. I think it would be the shit. Plug and play boyz just plug and play.
Power Commander III USB with Wide Band Sensor Technology
The Power Commander III with Wide Band Sensor technology was introduced in 2005 to deal with the closed loop area of the BMW motorcycles. This module includes a Bosch 5 wire wide band sensor that replaces the stock narrow band sensor. With the wide band sensor in place the Power Commander is able to monitor the air/fuel ratio and constantly adjust the fuel curve to the target ratio which can be set in the software.
Bottom of the page.
http://www.powercommander.com/featversions.shtml
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smiddy1
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posted December 11, 2006 03:30 PM
I think it accepts the hub, not sure.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 11, 2006 03:48 PM
The factorys will all soon have closed loop systems. Give it a few more years.
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dubious
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posted December 11, 2006 03:53 PM
Bikes rev much quicker than cars, and the load changes through the gears in a much mor dramatic fashion, thus closed loop systems and o2 sensors can not change the a/f ratio quick enough to keep up.
By the time the o2 sensor see's a need to change the a/f ratio the load and a/f requirments have changed again.
new bikes will have smarter ecu's and most likely closed loop systems purely for emissions purposes.
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blubyu
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posted December 11, 2006 04:09 PM
Do Formula 1 cars use a closed loop system? They rev faster and higher than any bike I've owned!!
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smiddy1
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posted December 11, 2006 04:18 PM
Then why do they use a o2 sniffer to tune with on the dyno? Wouldn't the sniffer be too slow to set the correct values for any certain rpm?I believe the accelerator pump feature would come handy in that instance. They already make it for motorcycles, that's why I don't see why it would so different from app to app. I would think you would still be able to load a custom map for drastic tunes and let it take over from there. We're talkin milli seconds.
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smiddy1
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posted December 11, 2006 04:22 PM
quote:
Do Formula 1 cars use a closed loop system? They rev faster and higher than any bike I've owned!!
Yes, with real time telemetry.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted December 11, 2006 06:32 PM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 11 Dec 2006 18:33
quote:
Then why do they use a o2 sniffer to tune with on the dyno? Wouldn't the sniffer be too slow to set the correct values for any certain rpm?I believe the accelerator pump feature would come handy in that instance. They already make it for motorcycles, that's why I don't see why it would so different from app to app. I would think you would still be able to load a custom map for drastic tunes and let it take over from there. We're talkin milli seconds.
Bikes measured on Dyno's exhibit slow climbing rev's and have very predictable behavior, not an accurate representation of a bikes behavior in the street...nevertheless, it's only a matter of time before we see closed loop FI in bikes as the standard. I had heard that Excelsior Henderson had a closed loop FI on their new production in 99, till they went bust...but we're talking big slow revving twins...
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smiddy1
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posted December 11, 2006 11:05 PM
quote:
quote:
Then why do they use a o2 sniffer to tune with on the dyno? Wouldn't the sniffer be too slow to set the correct values for any certain rpm?I believe the accelerator pump feature would come handy in that instance. They already make it for motorcycles, that's why I don't see why it would so different from app to app. I would think you would still be able to load a custom map for drastic tunes and let it take over from there. We're talkin milli seconds.
Bikes measured on Dyno's exhibit slow climbing rev's and have very predictable behavior, not an accurate representation of a bikes behavior in the street...nevertheless, it's only a matter of time before we see closed loop FI in bikes as the standard. I had heard that Excelsior Henderson had a closed loop FI on their new production in 99, till they went bust...but we're talking big slow revving twins...
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm taking your statement as saying that a dyno can't reproduce real world riding, understood. Then why even do it? To get the map close? Why even place a data logger on a bike , to get it closer? Why even place a wideband sensor on a turbo or nos bike, wouldn't be to late by the time you looked at , the damage would be done. I think that the sensor would react alot faster than what some are thinking. Maybe we should ask some of the expert tuners whom visit the site. I guess the piont is mute, being that dynojet doesn't make one for a sportbike other than the bmw's. And the only way to prove our points would be to test one.
This would be nice (if they made it).
pcIIIr usb wideband with the hub
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tuusinii
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posted December 11, 2006 11:25 PM
wbo2 sensors typically have recording time about 100 milliseconds so they are quick enough and aren't the dynos typically "Dynojet style" inertia dynos where they typically have less resistance than in real world so changing the speed even faster than real world or at max about the same?
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 12, 2006 03:15 AM
GM LS-1 engines in vetts and camaros use a VE table over about 80% throttle.
At that point they no longer use input from the o2 sensor or the MAF sensor. They rely on a VE table and run in speed density mode.
The o2 is more for crusing and low speed to compensate for conditions.
I never tried to change the VE table kick in TPS%, althou i could very easily. I dont know how well the computer would work in that case and the stock o2 sensors arnt wideband.
Interesting thought thou.
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KawRider
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posted December 12, 2006 05:44 AM
I love this thread. Dyno (or Road) tuning is not done in real time. You do a pull which logs your AFR through the RPM range, shut down, and adjust your computer, and repeat as necessary. I don't know if Im being Captain Obvious by stating this, just a friendly reminder. Most cars are closed loop for daily driving, NON-100% throttle position. Then they switch to an open loop map at 100% throttle. Most bikes are run open loop due to a few reasons: They rev really fast (already stated above) which is hard for a closed loop system to keep up with (the technology is now here that can do so... at a cost). There is not a need for closed loop due to less stringent emission regulations. Closed loop increases the manufacturers costs. I don't think bikes will ever need closed loop operation (but that doesn't mean that the manufacturers won't switch to closed loop). It would be interesting to see a bike that ran 100% closed loop ALL THE TIME. If you added a better flowing intake and exhaust, would the computer automatically adjust the fuel and timing, or would it just pop a CE light? In a perfect world it would automatically adjust. Just thinking out loud on this interesting subject. In the car world I like the way things are working with the horsepower wars and the ability to flash ECUs or trick them as necessary with a piggy-back system (like we do with our power commanders).
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smiddy1
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posted December 12, 2006 11:18 AM
Sounds like a software issue. What are we talking about that would not be fast enough? The pc, o2 sensor, or the ecu?
http://www.powercommander.com/tuninglink.shtml
I don't know how well it works, I do know it says real time, static, and dynamic loads, and 100% throttle. I think they could add this programing itno the pc. It might already be done.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted December 12, 2006 05:34 PM
KawRider, A flashable ECU would be awsome. They should be on bikes in a few years.
I'm sure dynojet wont be happy about it.
But maybe they will develop software to use on the ECU and sell that instead of hardware?
Time will tell.
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KawRider
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posted December 12, 2006 06:11 PM
Yeah... Im sure someone will chime in here... I thought there was a way access the ZX14's ecu/data bus? I seem to recall something posted here about it. My Mitsubishi Evoluion 9 has been reflashed several times, and Im currently running about 400 AWHP on the factory ECU with meth injection, and a seperate data logging system. There are people pushing the factory ECO to 500HP and beyond with bigger turbos, etc. I think the best all around setup is a flashable ECU with closed loop operation at part throttle, and open loop at full throttle. That's what my car runs, and Id love to see it in bikes, I don't think closed loop is necessary for full throttle operations. My .02Cents.
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