zxlnt
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted September 13, 2006 06:42 AM
Secondary Throttle Valves
Ok we all know that the second set of throttle valves chokes the engine down low and makes it feel soft. We also know how to get around it, 1. TRE or 2. Remove them. But what is it in the ECU programming that allows them to be open at low rpm for the couple minutes of riding and then go back to being shut.
I mean do you think its a simple time based program in the ECU or maybe a temperature sensor that alters the progamming as the engine warms up. I'm kind of leaning towards a temp sensor like the water temp sensor on the back of the cylinder head. That would be the first thing to warm up as the engine reaches operating temp and it wouldn't take very long either.. If it is temp sensor it probably wouldn't be very hard to figure out a way to trick it. Oh and I as sit here and type this, it HAS to be a sensor, because if the bike is allready warm the secondaries stay closed even if you just start the bike. It can't be that hard to trick the water temp sensor right???
Welll????
  
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted September 13, 2006 06:59 AM
 Edited By: BobC on 13 Sep 2006 08:00
If you disable the temperature sensor input to the ECU it could have other implications like the engine cooling fan not switching on and possibly the mixture being too rich.Surely it's easier to just take them out, anyway you'd still need a PC to re-map the Fuel injection.
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Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted September 13, 2006 07:12 AM
Edited By: TeamSpeed on 13 Sep 2006 08:14
Gear Position Sensor plus RPM plus temperature sensor = logic for secondaries
Just a guess as we know they open when cold, they open in 5th and 6th down low, and they open at the top of the RPM ranges.
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ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
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posted September 13, 2006 09:19 AM
You can't lie to the ECM about temp, or RPM without some problems - gear selection is the option.....actually - to hell with the plates :-) The schematics show a loop including the ECM, subthrottle valve actuator and the sensor. The only way I see to "trick" it is to reprogram the ECM to allow plate movement that you specify - which we can't do. I attempted to remove the subplate shaft and found that even that has to stay..........for now.
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2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
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D
Needs a job
Posts: 3365
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posted September 13, 2006 09:23 AM
I would be under the impression that it's a calibration function and has nuthin ta do with temp whatsoever - just like the gauges on bikes that sweep before starting. Computer checks performed to verify items operation in preset ranges then carries on when all is normal or throws the EFI light if they aren't.
My .02
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted September 13, 2006 09:24 AM
It is temp-based, it variably stays open around 45 seconds or so upon startup, but is not consistent. And if the bike is already warm when you start it, the flies stay shut.
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ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
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posted September 13, 2006 09:27 AM
I agree with the power up test...same as my Vmax cycles the VBoost valves at power up. I did not know about the flies staying open during cold...........so I am not just assuming, but I see the schematics right here and I don't know how to bypass the curcuit yet.............I do have someone at Kawi that is going to call us back with an answer of some kind.
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2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted September 13, 2006 11:09 AM
Mine runs fine with the flys in ......Oh well....... 
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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BlueLIGHTning
Expert Class
Posts: 227
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posted September 13, 2006 11:30 AM
Well not sure why your goin to all the trouble Ninja 14 other than it being a challenge to you. I mean the flies out is so simple and seems to have no ill effect on anything at all. Mine with flies outs runs alot smoother than with them in.
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ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
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posted September 13, 2006 12:57 PM
quote:
Well not sure why your goin to all the trouble Ninja 14 other than it being a challenge to you. I mean the flies out is so simple and seems to have no ill effect on anything at all. Mine with flies outs runs alot smoother than with them in.
That is it.........I enjoy it. If for some reason we want the shaft out we will know what to do. This is a hobby ya know :-) My second dyno run was with flies out and no PC...........the curve got SMOOTHER than stock...........a lot better.
Smoke..........it runs better on the track for the launch with flies, but on the street it is great for the low down pull for a roll-on. I got a 16T front and just ordered my 43T rear and it should wheelie in 2nd like a litre bike in 1st with that..............which is what you don't want on the track.
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2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
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stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted September 13, 2006 01:59 PM
quote:
Smoke..........it runs better on the track for the launch with flies, but on the street it is great for the low down pull for a roll-on. I got a 16T front and just ordered my 43T rear and it should wheelie in 2nd like a litre bike in 1st with that..............which is what you don't want on the track.
I was behind Smokin' on his red ZX14 with flies in, and a friend's black ZX14 flies out as they did roll-ons and such together at various speeds/rpm's. Then they swapped bikes around and did it again. I don't wanna' engage a debate, just found the comments interesting explaining to Smokin' about the whole flies thingie 
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted September 13, 2006 02:30 PM
We all know and have known since May that it is a map based on temp on startup. We discussed it back then and then found out that the fly removal was easy and relatively cheap to do. What would it serve to try a map workaround? Tricking the temp sensor would cause the engine to run rich and idle high...probably would code at some point too...
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FYYFF!!!
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted September 13, 2006 04:35 PM
quote:
quote:
Well not sure why your goin to all the trouble Ninja 14 other than it being a challenge to you. I mean the flies out is so simple and seems to have no ill effect on anything at all. Mine with flies outs runs alot smoother than with them in.
That is it.........I enjoy it. If for some reason we want the shaft out we will know what to do. This is a hobby ya know :-) My second dyno run was with flies out and no PC...........the curve got SMOOTHER than stock...........a lot better.
Smoke..........it runs better on the track for the launch with flies, but on the street it is great for the low down pull for a roll-on. I got a 16T front and just ordered my 43T rear and it should wheelie in 2nd like a litre bike in 1st with that..............which is what you don't want on the track.
All i can tell you is this ..I have had 100s of roll one races with all kinds of bikes .. I have not had one pull me from the hit and have not lost a race yet... I see no need for me to pull the flys ... Maybe my small tube Muzzy pipe help my low end and my 150 pound weight helps also ..Whatever the case i'm allways out in front....Smokin...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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ninja14
Pro
Posts: 1136
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posted September 13, 2006 09:36 PM
Smoke.....that's just cuz you know how to ride..........I need the help :-)
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2006 Turbo ZX-14.
2005 V-max 20th Anniv.
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