northmedic
Expert Class
Posts: 384
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posted August 24, 2006 04:18 PM
Poll Question:
IS a PC required to run with the flies out
My question or poll is after reading all that is on the site about pulling the flies. Can you run the bike with out a concern for lean condition issue ? in a bone stock bike.
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I,ll be right back
Poll Results:
 14 votes (93%)
true pc required stock bike
1 votes (7%)
false PC not required stock bike
  
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TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted August 24, 2006 04:36 PM
Running a stock fuel map without the secondary plates installed would run a serious risk of damaging an engine.
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lietoome
Needs a job
Posts: 2033
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posted August 24, 2006 04:41 PM
common sense says to get you a pc and at least get a copy of a map from another member.
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chez
Expert Class
Posts: 134
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posted August 24, 2006 04:48 PM
If you rode at 4000rpm all day it is still not lean enough to do any damage.
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Chez
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Xtremespeed
Expert Class
Posts: 415
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posted August 24, 2006 04:58 PM
Seems Brock disagrees.
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted August 24, 2006 05:01 PM
it is worth of spending 300 dollars to get a pc3. it runs alot better, it is a risk you are taking.
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FasterThanStink
Pro
Posts: 1218
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posted August 24, 2006 05:20 PM
Think about it. You are letting FAR more air into the engine at low RPM. You need more fuel both to make more power and to get a correct A/F ratio.
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Speed has never killed anyone,
suddenly becoming stationary...
That's what gets you.
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northmedic
Expert Class
Posts: 384
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posted August 24, 2006 05:35 PM
i was going on what i read on the third page of the tre link where one person showed that they had tested with the flies out stock .hence the reason i asked.
quoted from 3Boysand3Bikes
I removed my plates today, and took a little different approach to the whole "lean" issue.
I have a lot of experience in the automotive world of tuning, especialy concerning forced induction, but not a lot of FI bike tuning experience, so I leaned a little on Metric Cycles and Park 10 CBR Performance. Modern sportbikes have a secondary air system on them for air-exhaust gas injecton, which is supposed to lower NO polution and burn off extra HC's in the stream. In order to run a accurate AFR test, this system should be disabled. I do not believe that Ivan or Brock thought to disable this system, however today we did. We also set up to measure EGT's before and after the butterfly valves were removed.
2500-6000 RPM roll on, outside temp = 98F, bike coolant = 198F
With valves = 1380F AFR = 13.1
Without = 1378F AFR = 13.2
Crusing, 3.2K in 6th (dyno loaded to simulate 70mph)
With valves = 1402F AFR = 15.8
Without = 1406F AFR = 15.8
Tip in at 3.2K showed an immediate surge in fuel to 12.8 then smoothed back out again, Seems typical of a modern FI "run-lean" cruising habits of an automotive engine application with cats.
So, what's the issue? No idea. All I can tell you is the HP and TQ increased about 10 HP and 22 FT pounds with the plates removed, but the AFR's at WOT seemed the same in both cases.
Volumetrics of the engine won't change with the plates removed. There is still the same amount of backpressure from the exhaust and airflow from the inlet as before, provided that you don't change anything from stock. We found no signs of detonation. Keep in mind that we were using 93 octane fuel, which in itself is a nice safeguard on an engine tuned for 90-89 octane.
I wouldn't worry about engine damage when removing the plates, however a tune should help with the timing advance and LFT and SFT tables down low, which are lacking gears 1-4.
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted August 24, 2006 06:11 PM
Do yourself a HUGE favor & install a PC3usb . Then get it tuned! Cheapest HP you'll ever make!
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BobC
Pro
Posts: 1736
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posted August 25, 2006 01:46 AM
Who has details of the secondary air system, mentioned by Northmedic? (not the crankcase breather into the airbox) Anyone been in there yet?
____________
Candy Thunder Blue 2006 ZZR1400
Stock wheelbase
Max: 205.4 mph in 1.25 miles
2012 ZZR1400 in Golden Blazed Green
Brock CT Full System. etc
Max: 203.1 in 1 mile (so far)
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted August 25, 2006 03:51 AM
 Edited By: CrotchRocket on 25 Aug 2006 05:12
northmedic...Good test with the stock exhaust!!!
Can you test a 14 with a full aftermarket exhaust now???...Not many guys run stock exhausts!!!
The lean condition with a pipe and no flies is from 3-5000rpm...Definately a problem for normal street riding...But DragRacing with a pipe and no flies without a PC seems to me not to be much of a problem!!!
If a DragRacer stages at 4000 and leaves at 5-6000rpm as he lets the clutch out keeping the rpm's in the 5-6000 range then the lean problem is not an issue!!!
What do you guys think ???
Just my 
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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navigator
Expert Class
Posts: 308
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posted August 25, 2006 05:40 AM
I don't see how the flies make much difference in that situation. If you are staging at 4K and leaving at 5-6K, you should have minimal effect from them. In fact, you may be leaving the hole better with their damping effect and as soon as you are off the clutch and in the throttle they are open and stay that way for the rest of the pass.
At least that's how I see it. But then again I've only drag raced cars and not bikes.
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted August 25, 2006 06:22 AM
During DragRacing as you launch working the gas and clutch at 6000rpm, then Flies in Flies out is the same!!! 
____________
Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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tslewisz
Expert Class
Posts: 328
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posted August 25, 2006 07:57 AM
I guess I'm confused. The test above was done in 6th gear where the sec flies are open anyway so I don't understand what it proves.
LIttle help?
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3Boysand3Bikes
Expert Class
Posts: 382
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posted August 25, 2006 04:41 PM
quote:
i was going on what i read on the third page of the tre link where one person showed that they had tested with the flies out stock .hence the reason i asked.
quoted from 3Boysand3Bikes
I removed my plates today, and took a little different approach to the whole "lean" issue.
I have a lot of experience in the automotive world of tuning, especialy concerning forced induction, but not a lot of FI bike tuning experience, so I leaned a little on Metric Cycles and Park 10 CBR Performance. Modern sportbikes have a secondary air system on them for air-exhaust gas injecton, which is supposed to lower NO polution and burn off extra HC's in the stream. In order to run a accurate AFR test, this system should be disabled. I do not believe that Ivan or Brock thought to disable this system, however today we did. We also set up to measure EGT's before and after the butterfly valves were removed.
2500-6000 RPM roll on, outside temp = 98F, bike coolant = 198F
With valves = 1380F AFR = 13.1
Without = 1378F AFR = 13.2
Crusing, 3.2K in 6th (dyno loaded to simulate 70mph)
With valves = 1402F AFR = 15.8
Without = 1406F AFR = 15.8
Tip in at 3.2K showed an immediate surge in fuel to 12.8 then smoothed back out again, Seems typical of a modern FI "run-lean" cruising habits of an automotive engine application with cats.
So, what's the issue? No idea. All I can tell you is the HP and TQ increased about 10 HP and 22 FT pounds with the plates removed, but the AFR's at WOT seemed the same in both cases.
Volumetrics of the engine won't change with the plates removed. There is still the same amount of backpressure from the exhaust and airflow from the inlet as before, provided that you don't change anything from stock. We found no signs of detonation. Keep in mind that we were using 93 octane fuel, which in itself is a nice safeguard on an engine tuned for 90-89 octane.
I wouldn't worry about engine damage when removing the plates, however a tune should help with the timing advance and LFT and SFT tables down low, which are lacking gears 1-4.
Just to set the record straight on this quote.... I found the quote listed above for another member that was asking about it... and I reposted it. It appears when you read this that it is my actual quote, which it is not. (I didn't exactly understand everything he was saying here...) I can't remember who it was that I quoted, but it is a good 10 pages back by now I believe.
I ran a couple of weeks without a PC... I can't tell you the relief I had when I finally got the PC in. It is not worth risking your engine for the $265.00 and the 15 mintues that it is to do it right....
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted August 26, 2006 10:46 AM
quote:
quote:
i was going on what i read on the third page of the tre link where one person showed that they had tested with the flies out stock .hence the reason i asked.
quoted from 3Boysand3Bikes
I removed my plates today, and took a little different approach to the whole "lean" issue.
I have a lot of experience in the automotive world of tuning, especialy concerning forced induction, but not a lot of FI bike tuning experience, so I leaned a little on Metric Cycles and Park 10 CBR Performance. Modern sportbikes have a secondary air system on them for air-exhaust gas injecton, which is supposed to lower NO polution and burn off extra HC's in the stream. In order to run a accurate AFR test, this system should be disabled. I do not believe that Ivan or Brock thought to disable this system, however today we did. We also set up to measure EGT's before and after the butterfly valves were removed.
2500-6000 RPM roll on, outside temp = 98F, bike coolant = 198F
With valves = 1380F AFR = 13.1
Without = 1378F AFR = 13.2
Crusing, 3.2K in 6th (dyno loaded to simulate 70mph)
With valves = 1402F AFR = 15.8
Without = 1406F AFR = 15.8
Tip in at 3.2K showed an immediate surge in fuel to 12.8 then smoothed back out again, Seems typical of a modern FI "run-lean" cruising habits of an automotive engine application with cats.
So, what's the issue? No idea. All I can tell you is the HP and TQ increased about 10 HP and 22 FT pounds with the plates removed, but the AFR's at WOT seemed the same in both cases.
Volumetrics of the engine won't change with the plates removed. There is still the same amount of backpressure from the exhaust and airflow from the inlet as before, provided that you don't change anything from stock. We found no signs of detonation. Keep in mind that we were using 93 octane fuel, which in itself is a nice safeguard on an engine tuned for 90-89 octane.
I wouldn't worry about engine damage when removing the plates, however a tune should help with the timing advance and LFT and SFT tables down low, which are lacking gears 1-4.
Just to set the record straight on this quote.... I found the quote listed above for another member that was asking about it... and I reposted it. It appears when you read this that it is my actual quote, which it is not. (I didn't exactly understand everything he was saying here...) I can't remember who it was that I quoted, but it is a good 10 pages back by now I believe.
I ran a couple of weeks without a PC... I can't tell you the relief I had when I finally got the PC in. It is not worth risking your engine for the $265.00 and the 15 mintues that it is to do it right....
+1
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