MATTZ14
Expert Class
Posts: 282
|
posted July 16, 2006 07:06 PM
That sounds perfect. Am I to understand you don't even have a commander let alone pipe or anything? Brock said it was pretty lean that way in another thread.
____________
Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
  
|
3Boysand3Bikes
Expert Class
Posts: 382
|
posted July 16, 2006 07:24 PM
Two things... When you pull the flies (if you do) you will find that the bike feels about like it should. It doesn't feel like you added a turbo or anything. The bike just gets going quicker. It is restricted almost completely of air until 6-7(th) rpms... The bike holds back down low. When you pull the flies, (and add fuel), the bike accelerates throughout the whole powerband evenly. So what you feel at 7 grand, you feel at 3 grand all the way to redline. It is not hard to handle or control. It just is ready down low, (as you need to be!!) Kawasaki did a great job making the bike very safe and stable. I had a 2001 zx-12 and a 2002 Busa. The zx-12 was A LOT worse with throttle control, and that was with a stock 18 tooth front sprocket. It was like a direct drive from motor to wheel. In town, I had to ride the clutch sometimes while turning to avoid abrubt throttle response. That is what made the 12 FEEL faster than the BUSA. It was immediate response. The BUSA was smoother than that of my two bikes. I thought the BUSA was very controlled down low. I could have sworn that the 12 was faster... but everytime I ran them the BUSA won. I elected to skip the TRE since I had one on the BUSA and I didn't feel the difference. I never had it dyno'ed so everyone please understand I am not saying it didn't work. When I removed the flies... It is amazing!!! I like my stuff to work right... and the gear indications as well as nuetral etc... just drives me nuts... so no TRE for me. I am not against them... get them if you want. I am just giving my input.
Secondly... As you can see, there is a pretty big difference in the H.P. claims from the Brock Hindle to the Muzzys. You don't even have a 4 into 2 in the ballgame trying to compete... The point is when you have the true 4 into 1 exhaust, the H.P. IS going to be higher than two cans. It will (with proper set up) also use more fuel, and it will be louder (in most cases- I am talking professional pipes) it all depends what you want. Most of the race bikes that you are talking about with the high tail duals are trying to maintain a midrange to try to compete with the Ducatis (Twins)... (As I am sure you are well aware of...) So if you are going to 'impress your friends' at the dyno... spend the cash and get the 4 into 1... If you are looking for some good sound and a free flowing bike that you can ride around without setting off car alarms... save the cash on the 4 into 2... That is my input... (Probably because that is what I intend to do.) Unless Rob MUZZY decides to take another hundred off of his pipes to the members here for the hardships we have had to endure??!! I am still scared at night that someone will be at my computer talking trash about something they don't know about... Or is someone doing that now??!!!
|
3Boysand3Bikes
Expert Class
Posts: 382
|
posted July 16, 2006 07:29 PM
I am a true vegetable!!!! I meant a 4 into 1 into 2.... what a dork.... not a 4 into 2, that is what you are asking for... maybe this post would not be as useless with some pictures??? lol.. I mean that you already have the stock "header" and it has no cats... you will still have good gains... just not that of the 4 into 1
|
MATTZ14
Expert Class
Posts: 282
|
posted July 16, 2006 07:45 PM
Hey 3+3
My dealer told me that there was a cat in the collector. Do you know different? That would help to know. If that was the case, do you think I could buy the muzzy duals from Brock? LMAO Rob seems like a cool guy, but Brock really does the work.
____________
Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
|
3Boysand3Bikes
Expert Class
Posts: 382
|
posted July 16, 2006 08:01 PM
To be honest... I am going by what I have seen posted on here by guys in "the know". I now am doubting what I 'think" that I read. I was pretty sure that people were saying that is why the cans ran so hot... Someone will have to re post the FACTS. I am sorry if I got it wrong....
|
MATTZ14
Expert Class
Posts: 282
|
posted July 16, 2006 08:08 PM
My dealer has been wrong before. I never questioned it till now. Thanks for saying what no one else did. Thats what makes this work. I have taken it way off track. Thanks for getting us back on track.
____________
Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
|
stevewfl
Moderator
Posts: 27920
|
posted July 16, 2006 09:09 PM
Ya, my dealer explained to me the cans held the cats...and my dealer certanly may be wrong. The first ZX14 they saw was mine. No matter where the cat stuff is, I look forward to losing the weight/heat when I lose the factory exhaust 
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
|
BlackMagic14
Needs a job
Posts: 2058
|
posted July 16, 2006 10:07 PM
Here is an interesting point Brocks map for the TRE and The butterflies removed are EXACTLY IDENTICAL IN EVERY ASPECT
|
worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
|
posted July 17, 2006 12:55 AM
 Edited By: worm~hole on 17 Jul 2006 01:56
...maybe the kooks at MythBusters will one day set up a side-by-side riderless closed-course top-speed race remote-control-gyro-style between the Ninja and the Busa and have identical on-board piggy-back computers shift each bike at each bike's optimum shift point for hp/tq...then and only then will we know which bike is indeed the fastest and the quickest since they'd have taken the human element out of the equation..agreed?...how can you not? 
...other than that this whole thing about who's dick is phatter than the other's matters only to those who are insecure about their purchase, yes?...either bike is way better than most riders anyway, anytime, anywhere...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
|
fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
|
posted July 17, 2006 02:35 AM
quote:
That sounds perfect. Am I to understand you don't even have a commander let alone pipe or anything? Brock said it was pretty lean that way in another thread.
Yes, all I did was remove the flies for one day to test...I'll remove them again next week when I get the whole system installed.
____________
FYYFF!!!
|
zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
|
posted July 17, 2006 05:29 AM
Edited By: zerMATT on 17 Jul 2006 06:30
quote:
Hey 3+3
My dealer told me that there was a cat in the collector. Do you know different? That would help to know. If that was the case, do you think I could buy the muzzy duals from Brock? LMAO Rob seems like a cool guy, but Brock really does the work.
The cat is in the front-end of the can where the mid-pipe enters.
Install any set of slip-ons that you like, they include a new set of mid-pipes since the stock cans are welded to the stock mid-pipes. That'll get ride of the cats and the heat that they generate... it's a worthwhile upgrade if you're not looking for a new header.
____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
|
raptor14
Expert Class
Posts: 264
|
posted July 17, 2006 08:42 AM
Question for FBA and 3+3. What kind of riding do you two do? This revolves around pulling or not pullling the flies. I don't go in straight lines. I like twisty backroads. My riding style highly values a smooth, controllable throttle response through the corners. What's your opinion as to pulling the flies for my riding style. Last thing I want to do is get a sudden burst of power coming out of an apex and run off the road or head on into a car. You two have experience with flies in, flies out. I'm only a flies in guy.
zerMATT, my system at work doesn't bring up the pic above but I can get it at home. I assume its the cutaway from the ZX-14 intro displays. It clearly shows the CATS in the front end of the can. I agree that slip-ons will remove the heat from the CATS. They will also provide a weight reduction. The stock can+mid-pipes weighs 14.5 pounds each. You'll also probably get a slight performance boost if you map with a PC. My only experience with a slip-on was replacing the can+mid-pipe on my FZ1 with a Micron slip-on. Before I rejetted the bottom end dropped out as it leaned me out to much. Had to slip the clutch like crazy to pull away from a stop. FZ1 has an R1 derivative engine, which is top end oriented anyway. Don't know if this will happen to a 14, but I would suggest remapping anyway. Micron said I wouldn't have to rejet the FZ1 but I sure had to. After rejetting I got my bottom end back and a slight boost in the mid-range. Nothing major at the top end.
Now, here's my 2 cents. If you go with a slip-on you really need to get a PC and remap. To my limited knowledge, no one is providing a map for slip-ons yet, although I'm sure they will in the future. So you need to remap via a dyno or wait until some exhaust manufacturer develops a generic map. Now, since you're keeping the duals, you have to buy two slip-ons. Cost of two slip-ons + PC + map approaches or equals the cost of Brock's Gen 3 StreetSmart + PC + map. With Brock's system you get an additional weight reduction, significant performance improvement, and Brock's excellent customer service. I'm not advertising for Brock, it's the system I have and I like it. Muzzy is the other guy on the block. Get what you want. Only major advantage of the slip-on is if you just don't want to get rid of the dual can look. That's a personal preference. I personally think the 14 looks better with duals, but I sure like the benefits of the 4-2-1. Do with your bike what you want and enjoy it. Just make educated decisions and explore the benefits/costs of each option as best you can.
|
fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
|
posted July 17, 2006 09:05 AM
Lots of twisties, but getting there requires highways both primary and secondary roads. In the corners with the flies removed, throttle response will be more aggressive, but the bike doesn't pull out of them with the flies in under 5k...in other words, if you get somewhat aggressive and you want to exit harder, there's nothing there, unless you pull 'em. So, If it's leisurely sport touring riding you want in the turns...leave 'em in. If you want to get more aggresive, take 'em out. It only means getting used to the throttle response when you remove them as it responds a lot quicker with them out.. If you have a good sense of the bike and are a seasoned rider, removing the flies will only help you do what you want to.
Here's my take:
Brocks maps are available for both setups. Removing and re-installing is about an hour if you're somewhat mechanically inclined. You could just take them out and if you're not happy, put them back in. You won't kill yourself having them removed...just that the bike will pull much harder under 6K and you don't want to be revving in 1st or 2nd at 6K in a turn on this bike; that's what you have to do to get any significant response with them in. You want to be in the 5K down range in the mid gears to use the full power in the turns and removing the flies will let you do just that. Hope this helps you!
____________
FYYFF!!!
|
3Boysand3Bikes
Expert Class
Posts: 382
|
posted July 17, 2006 10:23 AM
raptor14
Novice Class
Posts: 61
posted July 17, 2006 09:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question for FBA and 3+3. What kind of riding do you two do? This revolves around pulling or not pullling the flies. I don't go in straight lines. I like twisty backroads. My riding style highly values a smooth, controllable throttle response through the corners. What's your opinion as to pulling the flies for my riding style. Last thing I want to do is get a sudden burst of power coming out of an apex and run off the road or head on into a car. You two have experience with flies in, flies out. I'm only a flies in guy.
My riding style does not ever include racing anyone. We have some roads with curves that are safe to push the bike through... and then we have others that run through State Forest area. .. (This is not bear country... and there are a few dear. No Elk... but skunks get annoying...) and those roads are for 35mph rides as they are really twisty. Anyway, I pulled the flies and I feel comfortable in every aspect of the bike. I am not at all scared going in, in the middle of, or coming out of the corners with the flies pulled. As I started out with though, I don't race... so I don't have the rpm's up too high in the corner. That is the reason I took out the flies. If someone rides real hard, they just use a lower gear. I guess it is up to personal preferance... but when I took out the flies after hearing Brock and everyone saying it is 'unrideable'... (I have a lot of respect for those guys...) I expected it to be like an off and on switch. It is just like any other bike you have had now as far as you turn the throttle and it goes. It is just bigger, faster, and goes better. I do not drag race and therefore don't care about coming off the line smooth. When I am driving down a road at 55 and there is a car in front of me, I don't want to drop a 1400cc bike down a gear to pass him at 60 mph. Now you can roll on the throttle easy and accelerate past without any hesitation or shifting. That is what I wanted in this bike. As I stated in the other post. the zx-12 was A LOT worse than this bike is now in abruptness. (It was a 2001- and I believe they fixed it in 02). The only bad thing is that I wouldn't want to put the flies back in... The screws are tiny and it is pretty hard to move your hands around to get leverage. It took me an hour and a half to get them out... but that including waxing all of the plastic when I replaced it. That is what I have found out. To see what it is like, just go in a corner at 7 grand and feel the throttle response. It will be about the same.. Obviously at higher rpms it will be a tad more responsive.
|
fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
|
posted July 17, 2006 10:25 AM
So I take it you're a happy camper now!
____________
FYYFF!!!
|
zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
|
posted July 17, 2006 11:57 AM
quote:
zerMATT, my system at work doesn't bring up the pic above but I can get it at home. I assume its the cutaway from the ZX-14 intro displays. It clearly shows the CATS in the front end of the can. I agree that slip-ons will remove the heat from the CATS. They will also provide a weight reduction. The stock can+mid-pipes weighs 14.5 pounds each. You'll also probably get a slight performance boost if you map with a PC. My only experience with a slip-on was replacing the can+mid-pipe on my FZ1 with a Micron slip-on. Before I rejetted the bottom end dropped out as it leaned me out to much. Had to slip the clutch like crazy to pull away from a stop. FZ1 has an R1 derivative engine, which is top end oriented anyway. Don't know if this will happen to a 14, but I would suggest remapping anyway. Micron said I wouldn't have to rejet the FZ1 but I sure had to. After rejetting I got my bottom end back and a slight boost in the mid-range. Nothing major at the top end.
I've got D&D slip-ons with no remapping. The low-end power is great - probably improved a little (the dyno chart shows more torque down low then stock), it definitely does not lose power with these. Yes, remapping with the D&D cans would surely help even more, but it's not a requirement by any means.
____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
|
raptor14
Expert Class
Posts: 264
|
posted July 17, 2006 12:22 PM
FBA and 3+3, thanks for the feedback. I have Brock's map for flies in, flies out, and TRE. Don't want the TRE. Nothing against IVAN, just kinda like my gear indicator. I may try the flies out with Brock's map this weekend and see what happens.
zerMATT, glad the low end didn't drop out on your 14 like it did on my FZ1. The slip-on killed it. After about a week I put the stock can back on and rode that way until I got around to rejetting. I even retained the exhaust valve when I installed the slip-on and it still leaned it out way to much. Ah yes, I on my home PC now and I see you posted the cutaway with the CAT that I was thinking of.
All three of you, enjoy your 14's. At least with FBA and zerMATT I listened to a lot of your chat before I broke down and got my 14. Haven't had a single regret since.
|
MATTZ14
Expert Class
Posts: 282
|
posted July 17, 2006 02:03 PM
Now were getting somewhere.
zerMatt, I have seen that pic along with a bunch of others that go with it. My question regarding that is, have you seen a cut-a-way of the collector? My dealer says there is one in it also. Kind of doubt it, but??? If someone has taken their exhaust off, they should be able to look right in the collector and tell us how it's set up. Maybe even post a pic.
Gotta run
____________
Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
|
suicycle
Expert Class
Posts: 136
|
posted July 17, 2006 02:18 PM
I have removed my stock exhaust to put on a Brock system a month ago...just went out and checked again...nothing in the collector except the heavy cheap stainless its made out off...no cat in mine...just in the cans.
|
raptor14
Expert Class
Posts: 264
|
posted July 17, 2006 02:20 PM
You're dealer is full of crap, to put it nicely. He knows nothing about the 14. I pulled my stock system and replaced it with Brock's. There is nothing in the collector.
|
MATTZ14
Expert Class
Posts: 282
|
posted July 17, 2006 03:44 PM
Thats kind of what I thought. live in the middle of nowhere and it's the only one I've seen and the same for them, other then the school they SUPPOSEDLY went to. I have posted some other stupid shit that they have said and done on other threads. The wrenches seem to be ok It's just the service MANAGER is full of himself. My headlights were all pointed at the ground when I picked mine up and when I was looking it over the other day I noticed a lower fairing bolt missing only a couple hundred miles out of my first service. Maybe I will withdraw the above statement about the wrenches unless we want to assume I was talking about the ones in the tool kit.
____________
Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
|
scificanada
Expert Class
Posts: 411
|
posted July 19, 2006 04:27 PM
Years ago I had a 1150 EF... Pulled stock system and put a WOLF 4 into 2 crossover system on, A wee increase in HP, not much, but a hell of a lot louder.
That said, have to agree with most here, 4 into 1 (4-2-1) is best bang for the buck, Yea I like the look of a twin can, but performance doesn't compare.
My Brock, Stainless / Ti system has been shipped today with my PCIII.
I plan to yank the Flys at the same time the system goes on.
And luckily today I got the call that all my body panels came in so I will be doing it all at the same time....
____________
Be a predator, not prey.
2006 Blue(the fastest colour) ZX14, Brock Ti Gen 3, Secondary Butterflies out, PCIII with Brock Map, Muzzy Frame Sliders.
|
|
|
HOME
NEW TOPIC