posted July 16, 2006 03:23 PM
weight or what??? I have noticed on a couple other threads this off-shoot so I thought I would ask.
Why doesn't anybody make a full exhaust with twin cans (CF) of any kind. Muzzy makes slip- ons, but thats all I see. I would like duals but still the performance of an upgrade not just the look and sound. It can't be the weight not everybody is racing on the track(I'm not, none around). I see ZX1KR has a camera on his tank. If weight were an issue that is the worst place to put it. He may be practicing and not racing, but you still want to keep your set-up same as possible. Right? I'm not knockin ZX1KR!! Just asking a question. Alot of the race bikes run duals high and tight like the new 10. Why can't we have the same kind of set-up?? I would love to see a high and tight CF just under the rear fairing. Brock are you out there, maybe Muzzy, anybody?
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07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
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posted July 16, 2006 03:51 PM
I think the cost of a full dual system would sker most peep off.
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82 Gpz750, 84 Ninja 900, 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy Big Bore Kit), *another* 2000 ZX12R (Muzzy custom stroke crank 1341cc motor), 2004 ZZR1200, 2005 ZX10R, 2007 ZX14, 2008 Concours 14, 2014 Versys 650, 2014 Yamaha WR450F, 2015 Ninja H2
posted July 16, 2006 03:53 PM
Hoptefully Brock or Muzzy will speak up as they are experts. Me, not an expert but I have opinions. Engine exhaust systems are actually pretty complicated. They aren't just a set of tubes to pass the exhaust to a muffler for sound deadening. Designed correctly they act as a pump by interacting with the exhaust pressure pulses to help empty and refill the cylinders with a f/a mixture. An exhaust can create peaks and valleys in the torque curve. Peaks can occur when the exhaust pumping action pulls more mixture into the cylinders and doesn't pull any of that unburned mixture out into the exhaust system. Valleys occur when the exhaust pulls unburned mixture out of the cylinders, doesn't pull enough in, or blows back burned gasses. Difficult design problem and the exhaust system is compromised to work well over a wide rpm range. A 4-1 system works great at high rpms but compromises the mid-range. A 4-2-1 provides a better balance for the low and mid range. A 4-2 doesn't take max advantage of the in-line 4 pressure pulses to and therefore doesn't make as much power, or it makes it over a very limited range. That's my 2 cents, but again, I'm not an expert. Just a dummy with opinions. I'm sure 90% of those on this board know more than I do on this subject.
posted July 16, 2006 04:04 PM
I really dont know why Akrapovic made the 4-1-2 for the ZX10, looks good though!!!...I would rather see a 4-2-1 or 4-1 less bends-more flow and cheaper!!!
Mattz, maybe you can talk Rob into making one for you!!!.....$$$ talks.....
posted July 16, 2006 04:11 PM
Thanks guys. Alot of people reading, not much posting. Don't need to be an expert to put in your 2cents. Maybe if enough people like the duals we will get some attention.
Raptor I'm not an x-pert either, but I feel what your sayin. I think that alot of that goes more towards 2-strokes. I know they link the 2 together in cage set-ups 8 or 6-2-1(h-pipe)-2. Like swft said 4-1-2. Factory style w/out the weight and cat crap.
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Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
posted July 16, 2006 04:41 PM
Got my info from SportBike Performance Handbook, which is focused on 4-strokes. Exhaust scavenging is a major issue with in-line 4's.
posted July 16, 2006 04:50 PM
Kewl, that's why were here. If you can learn from other peoples and help a brutha out were gettin somethin done. Were I live there is nuthin. If I want stuff I gotta order it and info, forget it. My dealer told me that the flat spot down low was caused from making the bottom lean to pass emissions. WE know that ain't true. They also said we could fix it by richening up the bottom.
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Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
posted July 16, 2006 04:53 PM
"Just by a commander" they said. Yea right. I know better then that without talkin to anybody
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Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
posted July 16, 2006 05:08 PM
1. PC will help the low end, but you won't get the major advantage without a full exhaust system. Slip-ons+PC will give a minor gain.
2. Sportbike Performance Handbook was written by Kevin Cameron and is available in most bookstores. Lot's of technical discussion if you're so inclined. Large write-up on exhaust systems and how they affect performance. In general (there are always unique cases) a 4-2 and a 4-1provide max benefit over a very narrow rpm range. 4-2-1 systems spread the benefit out. Top end may not be as great as with the other two systems, but low and mid-range will be better. That's why you might see guys on the roadrace circuits with 4-2 or 4-1 or 4-2-1 systems. They are trying to get their bikes optimized for their riding style and where they want to concentrate (or spread) their power delivery. Typically, because it spreads the benefit out, 4-2-1 systems are better for the street. You drag racers, I know nothing about your sport or how exhausts help/hurt so my comments may not apply. Wish I had the reactions that drag racers do but I don't.
3. I screwed up once before the fuel injector days. Installed a full system without rejetting the carbs. Lost the bottom end. Power just disappeared and I had to rev like crazy just to pull away from a stop. Rejetted to correct the severe lean condition caused by the new exhaust system. Bottom end returned to where it used to be. Top end had major gains.
posted July 16, 2006 05:24 PM
If you really want to wake the bottom end up read the article by Brock and Fish on the TRE vs. pulling the secondary throttle plates (as well as the numerous threads on these items). I haven't tried either of these. I'm actually hoping the new Dynojet USB Hub will allow control of the secondaries. Either that or some of the courageous inventors on this web site would try drilling holes or grinding down the secondaries. Right now I'm happy with the Brock/Hindle Gen 3 StreetSmart exhaust + PC + Brock's map.
posted July 16, 2006 05:32 PM
You obviously have done your reading. I can relate to all of it. I just gotta think that Kaw put twins on there for a reason like the 10, but 636 is out in 1. I'm wondering if these new big motors are breaking some of the rules. I can't believe the twins are there for looks and kaw could save some money with a single yet they did it anyway.
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Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
posted July 16, 2006 05:47 PM
Don't know why Kawi went with twins. Their system is a 4-1-2. Each can has a catalytic converter. Maybe the choice was based on emissions and noise? A single exhaust with a CAT for a 1352cc engine would probably be huge and it would run hot as hell. Stock exhausts are also very quiet and achieve that with baffles, also adding to the size. My imagination is picturing a 10" diameter single-sided exhaust, and that would (1) not look good and (2) be in the way. Aftermarket systems don't have CATS and are straight through. Thus they: (1) are louder, (2) have lower pressure loss, and (3) are smaller in diameter. I can tell you the Brock Gen 3 pumps some air out the back. I can stand 5 feet behind the bike while its idling and feel the breeze from the exhaust flow. It's not hot cause its mixed out with ambient air, but it does have some velocity left.
quote:You obviously have done your reading. I can relate to all of it. I just gotta think that Kaw put twins on there for a reason like the 10, but 636 is out in 1. I'm wondering if these new big motors are breaking some of the rules. I can't believe the twins are there for looks and kaw could save some money with a single yet they did it anyway.
Wouldn't it be wise to suspect Kawi had to have 2 cans for the emssions control they are required to sell the bike with considering the bigger engines throw bigger pollution? And on the same note, wouldn't be safe to assume the aftermarket companies don't want the weight of an extra can if they aren't required to put it on the bike?
I can't see someone selling us a performance product on a note such as "ya, but the extra weight is to look cool, we really just require 1 can!"
Again, just my
But I love riding my bike!
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
quote:If you really want to wake the bottom end up read the article by Brock and Fish on the TRE vs. pulling the secondary throttle plates (as well as the numerous threads on these items). I haven't tried either of these. I'm actually hoping the new Dynojet USB Hub will allow control of the secondaries. Either that or some of the courageous inventors on this web site would try drilling holes or grinding down the secondaries. Right now I'm happy with the Brock/Hindle Gen 3 StreetSmart exhaust + PC + Brock's map.
Pull the flies man...Brock has that map too...you'll freak...I did that and the bikes goes Heart Attack...it wants to lift at 3500...(it does actually -- with only a slight tug on the bars)
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FYYFF!!!
posted July 16, 2006 06:08 PM
Yes, Yes that makes sense. Glad to get some more input. I don't race my bike on the track or the road. No one and no place to race. I'm the only 14 and of the 2 busa's in the area I've only seen 1. Wish I had my bike when I passed the 502 boss hoss on the e-way though. That might of been interesting.
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Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
posted July 16, 2006 06:37 PM
Fastest, It doesn't light up the tire through 3rd? It's controllable, not crazy like stated on other threads? I thought based on those other threads that moding the flies would be smoother and best of both world. Brock shot that idea down pretty qick though.
____________
Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
posted July 16, 2006 06:43 PM
Raptor, I'm not comfortable with the way the TRE affects to many systems. I think it's a band-aid. You talked about the hub. Do you or anybody else know if any of the manufactures have come out with a racing cpu for bikes other then the obvious litre bikes and smaller track classes? That would be the way to go. Even an updated cpu once suzuki or yamaha come out with something bigger and badder.
____________
Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
posted July 16, 2006 06:44 PM
Removing the flies does not smooth out the throttle reponse, quite the contrary...it ends up like the throttle response of the Busa...but wow does it hit hard! I love it and I've learned long ago how to deal with the throttle. Many bikes have that low end grunt...I had an 04 FJR that made the ZX14 with flies removed seem like a pussy bike....that bike would lift at 2K, and lift hard too. Duc's have that type of low end grunt...they wheelie from a stop sign with only throttle twist at 10 MPH...
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FYYFF!!!
posted July 16, 2006 06:46 PM
I know my cousin was bummed when I got my 14. He just got dumping all his money into a vmax with a B&M superchager on top. We know he can't turn, but he thought it was gonna be fast.
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Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
posted July 16, 2006 06:53 PM
Maybe smoother isn't the correct word. Is the power more linear. I've never run with or on a busa.
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Later days, better lays
07 BLACK ZX14 Getting customized waiting for the white stuff to go away
06 BLACK ZX14 GONE Recall was a little late.
posted July 16, 2006 07:00 PM
Yes...the hard hit at 6K isn't a "hit" anymore...because it now starts a under 3K...so you can imagine how hard it pulls...still pulls the same at 6K up, except that since it started at say 2K, you don't feel it the same way. For street roll-on's, it's just sheer shit-faced grins! No need to downshift anymore, since any gear you happen to be in at 3500 will just pull like there's no tomorrow. The flies don't fully open till 7K...so when you map/ pipe and remove the flies, the bike just pulls brutally hard from the get go. Right now with factory pipes, it has no balls under 5K...and after only a fly removal mod and nothing more, you get gut wrenching torque from the start.
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FYYFF!!!
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