S A Kruz
Expert Class
Posts: 127
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posted July 03, 2006 07:54 AM
AUTOMOTIVE OIL FILTERS
The more research I do on the subject of oil filters the more I realize how complicated a subject it is.
Last year when I bought my VTX 1300 I went shopping for the best possible filter for my baby. After a little research I settled on the Mobil 1 M-110 filter as a suitable replacement for the Honda O.E.M. filter.
My only criterion at the time was, will it fit and does it have superior single pass filtration efficiency. The Mobil 1 M1-110 had superior performance in single and multiple pass filtering efficiencies due to a synthetic media that allowed the manufacturer to closely control the porosity.
Traditional paper elements are natutal organic materials and pore size is not as consistent. The M1-110 is slightly longer than the O.E.M. filter which in theory gives it superior surface area to trap contaminants. All good stuff and I have been using this filter for the last 12,000 miles.
A year later, I decided to delve deeper into the subject of filters and now I'm not so sure. A natural consequence of increased filtering efficiency is restriction to flow. If flow becomes too restricted than the filter bypass valve begins to open, circulating unfiltered oil. This happens briefly every time you start your engine and circulate cold, thick oil. If a filter restricts flow too much then critical engine components can become starved for oil especially under conditions of high rpm when oil flow is most critical.
Motorcyle O.E.M. filters are designed with a very low bypass valve operating pressure, typically down around 8 psi. This is done to ensure that critical engine components receive enough oil pressure during periods of high demand. Automotive oil pumps are more robust and typical bypass valves operate in the 11-17 psi range.
What is the point of all this? Well the manufacturer of our motorcycles has gone to great length to match the oil filter to the requirements of the engine with regards to flow rate, filtering efficiency and bypass valve operating pressure. It's a delicate balancing act of conflicting requirements IMHO and one that we shouldn't mess with.
On that note I purchased the Kawasaki O.E.M. filter for my new Zx-14 rather than go with an automotive type. Yea, it's more expensive, 2 or 3 bucks, but at least I know that an engineer at KHI matched the filter to the engine requirements. I am going back to the O.E.M. filter for my VTX 1300 as well.
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2007 CBR 1000RR Red/Black Yoshimura RS-5 Full System, Flapper Mod and PCIII
2006 ZX-14 Passion Red, Flies Out, Yoshimura TRC, PCIII, TRE006a and Custom Map
2004 VTX 1300C Candy Apple Red
  
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blitzkrieg
Needs a job
Road kill = Free lunch.
Posts: 2044
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posted July 03, 2006 10:57 AM
quote:
Motorcyle O.E.M. filters are designed with a very low bypass valve operating pressure, typically down around 8 psi. This is done to ensure that critical engine components receive enough oil pressure during periods of high demand. Automotive oil pumps are more robust and typical bypass valves operate in the 11-17 psi range.
What is your source for this information?
Mobil1, Bosch and Amsoil filters all have a 25 lbs relief pressure.
Toyo Roki (OEM) has an 18 lbs relief pressure.
Purolater Pure1 has a 17 lbs relief pressure.
I have never heard of any filter that has an 8 lbs relief window.
Go out and read this link. It's a good one and one of the truly unbiased ones out there.
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Filters.html#OilFilters
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"BTW....You need to get a girlfriend who's last name isn't .jpg"
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navigator
Expert Class
Posts: 308
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posted July 03, 2006 11:29 AM
I read that and because of it, I am currently using the $2 SuperTech filter from Wallyworld. I read the oil portion of it too and I will be changing to Rotella Synthetic from Mobil 1at my next change.
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Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.
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S A Kruz
Expert Class
Posts: 127
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posted July 03, 2006 11:42 AM
 Edited By: S A Kruz on 3 Jul 2006 12:49
quote:
quote:
Motorcyle O.E.M. filters are designed with a very low bypass valve operating pressure, typically down around 8 psi. This is done to ensure that critical engine components receive enough oil pressure during periods of high demand. Automotive oil pumps are more robust and typical bypass valves operate in the 11-17 psi range.
What is your source for this information?
Mobil1, Bosch and Amsoil filters all have a 25 lbs relief pressure.
Toyo Roki (OEM) has an 18 lbs relief pressure.
Purolater Pure1 has a 17 lbs relief pressure.
I have never heard of any filter that has an 8 lbs relief window.
Go out and read this link. It's a good one and one of the truly unbiased ones out there.
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Filters.html#OilFilters
It seems our two authors are in basic disagreement about relief valve settings. It comes down to who has the greater credibility. I don't personally know either one of these gentleman and haven't seen any professional credentials so it's who you gonna believe? My point was unless I know for sure, I'm taking the conservative route and fitting the filter that the manufacturer of the bike recommends. Here's the link:
http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/oilfilter2.htm
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2007 CBR 1000RR Red/Black Yoshimura RS-5 Full System, Flapper Mod and PCIII
2006 ZX-14 Passion Red, Flies Out, Yoshimura TRC, PCIII, TRE006a and Custom Map
2004 VTX 1300C Candy Apple Red
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blitzkrieg
Needs a job
Road kill = Free lunch.
Posts: 2044
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posted July 03, 2006 12:03 PM
Never trust a person that can't spell immediate or vague. LOL
"If any information contained in this site is not completely accurate, is vauge, or flat out wrong, please contact me by e-mail imidiately and I will address the problem"
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"BTW....You need to get a girlfriend who's last name isn't .jpg"
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S A Kruz
Expert Class
Posts: 127
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posted July 03, 2006 12:04 PM
Here's Mr Verdones's resume off his website:
http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/files/Peter_Verdone_Resume.pdf
While this is some fairly impressive stuff, I am certainly not implying that his 8 psi value is accurate and your man's value is not. We just have a discrepancy that needs to be worked out. Also the Mobil 1 filter relieves at 25 psi and Toyo at 18 psi, according to the calsci.com site, that alone is a significant difference. Not trying to start a pissing match, just searching for answers like everyone else.
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2007 CBR 1000RR Red/Black Yoshimura RS-5 Full System, Flapper Mod and PCIII
2006 ZX-14 Passion Red, Flies Out, Yoshimura TRC, PCIII, TRE006a and Custom Map
2004 VTX 1300C Candy Apple Red
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blitzkrieg
Needs a job
Road kill = Free lunch.
Posts: 2044
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posted July 03, 2006 12:52 PM
quote:
Here's Mr Verdones's resume off his website:
http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/files/Peter_Verdone_Resume.pdf
While this is some fairly impressive stuff, I am certainly not implying that his 8 psi value is accurate and your man's value is not. We just have a discrepancy that needs to be worked out. Also the Mobil 1 filter relieves at 25 psi and Toyo at 18 psi, according to the calsci.com site, that alone is a significant difference. Not trying to start a pissing match, just searching for answers like everyone else.
The point I was trying to emphasize from that website is:
"Filters also have relief or bypass valves. These valves are set to trigger if the filter element is making too large a pressure drop. Normally, this would be because it is clogged, however on an engine with a very high flow oil pump this can also happen if the oil is very cold. Motorcycles do not have high- flow oil pumps. These relief valves are set for different pressures, and sometimes a tech or mechanic will tell you that it's important that the relief valve have the correct rating. It's not. These valves are very low-precision devices, and their pop- off values are different from each other even in identical filters of the same brand. I have spoken with engineers (not techs) at AMS, Purolator, Mobil, and Champion, and not one of them knows of a single reason why you can't use a car filter on a motorcycle. In fact, not one of them could quote me a single pop-off valve pressure rating off the tops of their heads. They did not consider this an interesting or important topic until I brought it up. When the relief valve is open, the oil is going around the filter element and not being filtered at all. If your relief valve ever opens up you're either using a really cheap oil on a really cold day, or you haven't changed your oil filter since the last time you saw Robert E. Lee. Because filters can clog up and saturate with junk, your oil filter should be changed about every 5,000 miles. In fact, if you are using an advanced synthetic oil, you should probably change your oil filter about twice as often as you change your oil.
"
I just got off the phone with Mobil1's tech support (1-800-882-0890) and since I didn't have a Mobile1 part# (I use Purolater Pure 1) I asked him to look up a small Japanese car. He quoted me 8-11 PSI for the Civic SI filter.
I'm definitely not looking for a pissing match either bro. I firmly believe in the Pure 1 and it took a lot of convincing to get me to move from OEM. But, and it's a big but, if you read a lot of the "better" websites on the subject the general concensus is the OEM filter is far inferior to certain other filters.
Now, Kawasaki says you should do oil changes at 7500 miles. My bike's have never seen more than 3k on an oil change even with syn.
This is why I don't run oil like Royal Purple, Silkolene or the other $15 a quart stuff. I'd rather run quality oil and change it often than try to stretch the really expensive stuff out for 7.5K miles.
I ran Amsoil for one oil change in my 12 and it did nothing for me, yet I have a friend that swears by it.
It's all perspective I suppose.
____________
"BTW....You need to get a girlfriend who's last name isn't .jpg"
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MasterBlaster
Expert Class
Posts: 297
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posted July 03, 2006 01:07 PM
quote:
I read that and because of it, I am currently using the $2 SuperTech filter from Wallyworld. I read the oil portion of it too and I will be changing to Rotella Synthetic from Mobil 1at my next change.
Thats what I use. Ive been using this combo for years on my valkyries, even the blower bike. Used it on the ZZR1200, and now on the 14. Its a hard combo to beat for the price, and does as good of a job as anything out there. I also shoot for 5000 mile oil changes, but if on a trip will not mind going over a couple of thousand....TB
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