navigator
Expert Class
Posts: 308
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posted July 01, 2006 07:00 AM
Results are in and I'm still confused.
First of all let me say thank you to everyone who has laid out time and money to make these mods, test them and then post the results for public use. I have read every word of every thread associated with secondary fly removal, TRE and PC mapping for the last 2 months.
So here is my problem. I am not a drag racer or top ender. I play on the streets. I want results that I can feel in the seat of my pants and see in roll ons against other bikes. I want a mild mannered monster of a daily driver. I read the results of Brock's testing and see this "Removing the throttle plates has the same net effect as installing the TRE" . Ok fine, so either mod provides about the same increase in power and torque with the TRE mod providing better or more consistent off idle performance.
If that is the case why do the guys with the fly removal mod describe the bike as being "scary fast, stupid fast, retarded fast, or as Brock put it a beast?" The guys from the TRE threads say things like "a noticeable increase, yes it helps and is worth the money." Why the same net gain but such a huge difference in perception?
I still don't know what to do, so I'm not gonna do anything. I think I already have a mild mannered beast and maybe given time someone will come out with an idea that I am comfortable with to make it more beastly.
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Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.
  
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted July 01, 2006 07:05 AM
Navi im in the same boat. I did put on the pipe and loving it. I just dont know what to do on the current issue. With the Hub coming I dont want to buy things im not going to need. I think once the pc3 gets here ill stay at that point till more options become avaliable
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21896
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posted July 01, 2006 08:24 AM
You know, a little saying we have at work applies to this situation...
"When in doubt, do NOTHING"...
If you feel that way then you should hang tight and wait for a better solution...
my 
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted July 01, 2006 08:28 AM
quote:
You know, a little saying we have at work applies to this situation...
"When in doubt, do NOTHING"...
If you feel that way then you should hang tight and wait for a better solution...
my
+1
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted July 01, 2006 08:34 AM
quote:
If that is the case why do the guys with the fly removal mod describe the bike as being "scary fast, stupid fast, retarded fast, or as Brock put it a beast?" The guys from the TRE threads say things like "a noticeable increase, yes it helps and is worth the money." Why the same net gain but such a huge difference in perception?
here's my interpretation from looking at brock's dyno graphs: remember how, especially going back a couple years, the magazine liter bike shootouts were all showing very similar HP numbers for the honda & the kaw, yet everyone was sayign the honda felt slow as opposed to the very fast feeling, very exciting kaw? the difference was just that the honda's power was daed smooth, while the green bike suffered/enjoyed the typical kawasaki lumpy power delivery. the hits of power (or more accurately torque) on teh akw made it _feel_ faster. 'xact same thing on the tre vs no plates graphs. the TRE (once mapped) makes for a reasonably smooth line, whereas the no plates run is all over the place, including a rather nasty looking dip.
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vegasdude
Zone Head
Posts: 821
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posted July 01, 2006 09:55 AM
It's really very simple. Look at the dyno sheets Brock put up on the gain from no tre to tre. Is that what you want? If yes, get the tre, if not just stick with what you got. If you like roll ons from first or second, the you will love having the tre.........................
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted July 01, 2006 10:19 AM
quote:
here's my interpretation from looking at brock's dyno graphs: remember how, especially going back a couple years, the magazine liter bike shootouts were all showing very similar HP numbers for the honda & the kaw, yet everyone was sayign the honda felt slow as opposed to the very fast feeling, very exciting kaw? the difference was just that the honda's power was daed smooth, while the green bike suffered/enjoyed the typical kawasaki lumpy power delivery. the hits of power (or more accurately torque) on teh akw made it _feel_ faster. 'xact same thing on the tre vs no plates graphs. the TRE (once mapped) makes for a reasonably smooth line, whereas the no plates run is all over the place, including a rather nasty looking dip.
And are you aware that Honda achieved that super-smooth power via a large plastic FLAP in the airbox operated via some linkage (can't remember if it was vacuum or servo). Many of the RR owners out there yanked that flap just like some of the '14 owners are yanking the flies...
Sometimes it's funny how history repeats itself.
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted July 01, 2006 12:54 PM
I think its the abruptness of the flys out that makes it so much of a beast. With the tre and mapped it doesnt make that much less than the flies mapped. The only thing i think would be the smoothness. I wish i could have both. We dont know when the usb hub will be out. Im kind of leaning toward the tre mapped for now. That and i k&n or bmc filter.
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mrsantafe
Zone Head
Posts: 521
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posted July 01, 2006 04:38 PM
I removed my secondaries and have the muzzy pipe and pc. I won't be putting the flies back in. I also live at a mile high location so i like having every bit of hp and torque i can get.
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9.78@155.13 mph 1.71 60 ft @ a near mile high dragstrip
2006 ZX14 gone
2006 ZX10r (Wifes street bike)
2004 zx10r (her race bike)
2002 ZX12 (still kicking a--)
2007 gsxr 1k (race bike)
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted July 01, 2006 04:52 PM
quote:
I removed my secondaries and have the muzzy pipe and pc. I won't be putting the flies back in. I also live at a mile high location so i like having every bit of hp and torque i can get.
is it full system or slip on?
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mrsantafe
Zone Head
Posts: 521
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posted July 01, 2006 05:00 PM
Its the muzzy full system, schnitz modded pc.
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9.78@155.13 mph 1.71 60 ft @ a near mile high dragstrip
2006 ZX14 gone
2006 ZX10r (Wifes street bike)
2004 zx10r (her race bike)
2002 ZX12 (still kicking a--)
2007 gsxr 1k (race bike)
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted July 01, 2006 05:16 PM
quote:
Its the muzzy full system, schnitz modded pc.
i have slip on muzzy no flies no pc, have someone checked the map, for some reason not running lean, checked the spark plugs looks good, runs great, i will leave mine alone too.
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TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted July 01, 2006 05:18 PM
Be very careful with your mods. All the guys that are "in the know" (Brock, zx1kr, etc...) are saying the bike runs dangerously lean if you take the secondary plates out and do not remap with a PC3...
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted July 01, 2006 05:20 PM
shawn do you really enjoy it with out the flies. gt didnt have any problems either. I guess if i did it i might not have a issue either. I still want to be able to launch the bike.
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted July 01, 2006 05:21 PM
i know, they already warned me about it!!
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted July 01, 2006 05:30 PM
quote:
shawn do you really enjoy it with out the flies. gt didnt have any problems either. I guess if i did it i might not have a issue either. I still want to be able to launch the bike.
i do not have any problems with it. checked the spark plugs nothing abnormal, everything feels like stock except low end power and torque. maybe becuase i only have slip on, maybe because the temp. bottom line is runs great so i live it alone.
this is my decision and not trying have anybody do this. it works for me and that is all matters.
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MasterBlaster
Expert Class
Posts: 297
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posted July 01, 2006 05:48 PM
Am running mine no flies, PC that an Ebayer got from Muzzy moded for the 14 that I programed with zx1krs no fly map, I am sure it is a ZX10 PC, set of D&Ds on the stock midpipes and headers, and it runs great. Idle is perfect, cold start is perfect, The only thing you have to be aware of is not to grab a handful of throttle at low speed in the higher gears. You shouldnt be lugging it anyway. I will be geting a new map, but am waiting for the timing box. Meantime will be spending a week in the Colorado Rockies with it. We shall see what 10,000+ oft does to it. At RPM the D&Ds come into full song, they absolutely howl like a formula 1. Dont know why mine seems to run so good, but it may be the stock header and mids.....TB
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21896
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posted July 01, 2006 05:54 PM
mast... yer running a no flies map for the 14... just to confirm.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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MasterBlaster
Expert Class
Posts: 297
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posted July 01, 2006 07:41 PM
Correct., zx1ks came up with the map. His is piped, so I know I need to custom map mine, but for now it is fine. My Bud rode it yesterday for the first time since the PC and no flies map. He has a beautiful Blue /Silver Busa that is very fast, and the 14 just left him speechless. It tamed the abruptness of just removing the flies without the PC....TB
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21896
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posted July 01, 2006 08:19 PM
abruptness or do you mean the feeling of having your engine roasted from the inside out?
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted July 01, 2006 08:45 PM
Removing the flies will get you more TQ and power than the TRE, and will also leave your gear indicator intact as well as the launch and shift light...
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FYYFF!!!
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted July 01, 2006 09:06 PM
quote:
Am running mine no flies, PC that an Ebayer got from Muzzy moded for the 14 that I programed with zx1krs no fly map, I am sure it is a ZX10 PC, set of D&Ds on the stock midpipes and headers, and it runs great. Idle is perfect, cold start is perfect, The only thing you have to be aware of is not to grab a handful of throttle at low speed in the higher gears. You shouldnt be lugging it anyway. I will be geting a new map, but am waiting for the timing box. Meantime will be spending a week in the Colorado Rockies with it. We shall see what 10,000+ oft does to it. At RPM the D&Ds come into full song, they absolutely howl like a formula 1. Dont know why mine seems to run so good, but it may be the stock header and mids.....TB
Where are you at elevation? The reason I ask is because when I went through the mapping for the complete tune I added a considerable amount of fuel thru-out the map. I believe the map I'm running is cosiderably richer than any of the maps I've compared against.This mostly due to my near sea level location. If your at a higher elevation you should end up pretty close w/ the quicky map. I still recommend getting a custom map.
I'm glad to hear that she's runnin good. Let me know how it goes when you do get it mapped.
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Drowland
Zone Head
Posts: 733
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posted July 02, 2006 05:57 AM
The map from brock for my exhaust system (Gen 3) and no flies.. I have no problems at all. Just a little rough idle when the bike is cold. But after its warm it sounds fine when starting.. The map is almost perfect. I will have to add some fuel in the 0 throttle position at 4 grand to elimanate some decel popping..
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted July 03, 2006 07:31 AM
quote:
Am running mine no flies, PC that an Ebayer got from Muzzy moded for the 14 that I programed with zx1krs no fly map, I am sure it is a ZX10 PC, set of D&Ds on the stock midpipes and headers, and it runs great. Idle is perfect, cold start is perfect, The only thing you have to be aware of is not to grab a handful of throttle at low speed in the higher gears. You shouldnt be lugging it anyway. I will be geting a new map, but am waiting for the timing box. Meantime will be spending a week in the Colorado Rockies with it. We shall see what 10,000+ oft does to it. At RPM the D&Ds come into full song, they absolutely howl like a formula 1. Dont know why mine seems to run so good, but it may be the stock header and mids.....TB
check your header see if you see any color difference since modification,exhaust area from cylinder head going down.
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zx9rmal
Novice Class
Posts: 75
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posted July 03, 2006 12:53 PM
<>
Have you gone to a 16T front sprocket? Best $20 you'll ever spend for great fun on the street.
And, go for a Speedohealer and you will NOT lose a single mph on top because the bike will see 11k rpm in 6th.
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Mal Glanz
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
'12 ZX-14R
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