dubious
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posted June 26, 2006 12:28 PM
 Edited By: dubious on 26 Jun 2006 13:40
Brocks map, flies out, smeg = CRAZZY ! POWER
Ok guys here's the deal.
Ran Brocks smeg pump fuel, no flies map for last 2 days.
It is unreal .
STUPID STUPID FAST!
If traction is less then perfect, it will burn the hide in 1,2,3 and sometimes even 4th gear.
At first i thought my clutch was slipping.
Tried it again, and this time it hooked up!
Power wheelies in 3rd gear, .... if your bike is not lowered, maybe 4th too.
I mean 16" off the ground power wheelies at 120 mph. All torque, no clutch.
Its scary!
The top end pull is ABSOLUTELY RETARDED!!
A freight train.
The map made a huge difference!... Massive.
My back tire never looked the same.... scuffed... major scuffed.
So even when it isn't lit completly up, you know it is torquing right on the brink of breaking loose.... Like I said my tire never looked like it does now.
This bike could be very dangerous for even experienced riders.
Definately dangerous on wet pavement... no matter what.
Very abrupt, and the extra momentum the engine has from the bottom spins up the rear when you hit 6000 rpm.
Idling, and drivability between 1100-2000 rpm is very rough.
Engine surges. Brock spent alot of time trying to tune this out but could not.
Changes in Ambient air temp, and engine operating temps will cause problems.
Just as Brock found on the dyno, I found on the street, and with my laptop, tuning the fuel curve did not help, I would get it set when the motor was hot, and then when it cooled down it ran like shit., Same tuned for cool engine temp, and it ran like shit when hot.
OK.
So realistically, it is not practical for the street.
I recomend everyone sit tight, and wait before running out and doing this mod, especially if you do not want to undo the work later.
Brock is working feverishly on a solution, and should have something for us all soon.
If drivability, predictability, tire wear, and accelleration are important to you, then wait to see what develops.
Hang tough if you want practicle power!
Brock is working on it.
if Riding King Kong, and burnin rubber is your thing.... pull the flies..JUST MAKE SURE YOU GET IT MAPPED!
Either way I can not say enough about Brocks Pipes, service, and MAPs.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
  
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dubious
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posted June 26, 2006 12:35 PM
Oh, and for those who bought a pipe and PC from Brock, check your emails, hes sent out a barrage of maps he worked on for the last 2 weeks.
Thanks Brock!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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dubious
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posted June 26, 2006 12:43 PM
And.... I harassed, begged, and tried to extort the answer to the drivability issues,
He will deliver the result as soon as possible.
He's busy... don't bug him.
He'll tell all when its figured out!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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jw
Novice Class
Posts: 81
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posted June 26, 2006 01:05 PM
I don't understand why the sub throttle would make such a difference on a hot and cold engine?
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Drowland
Zone Head
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posted June 26, 2006 01:16 PM
quote:
And.... I harassed, begged, and tried to extort the answer to the drivability issues,
He will deliver the result as soon as possible.
He's busy... don't bug him.
He'll tell all when its figured out!
NO we want bug him cause we know you will!  IT is wicked fast.. So what kind of solution do you think he will have??? He said his ignition module is proably going to be ready next week...
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reynoldss
Expert Class
Posts: 207
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posted June 26, 2006 01:20 PM
Either way I can not say enough about Brocks Pipes, service, and MAPs. (quote)
+1 Fantastic Customer Service
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Everybodys tyring to go green, I did years ago.
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dubious
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posted June 26, 2006 01:43 PM
quote:
I don't understand why the sub throttle would make such a difference on a hot and cold engine?
Well, I can only guess that the fine adjustment for fuel at idle is so minute that Kawi ECM can not control it well.
They are using fuel and air control to balance the idle.
If you pull off the left grill / straked panel, and strt the engine, watch the throttle linkage.
Turn the idle way down to about 900 rpm , the bike starts to stumble.
The secondary linkage will move i either direction in attempt to pick up the engine before it stalls.
They are using fuel and air control to balance the idle.
I think? not sure, but am taking an educated guess that the cams have soo much duration the idle suffers.
Long duration cams have very poor vacuum at idle.
Kawi was able to keep the intake velocity higher with the secondaries closed, allowing smooth idle.
They used the secondaries to tame the beast and smooth idle.
With them removed the idle suffers due to long duration cams.
Engines with poor vacuum draw little air at idle.= little oxygen
When the intake charge is hot or the air is hot, the air is less dense and has even less oxygen.
Since the air flow is not regulated by the secondary's when they are removed , but the fuel is .... you now have an imbalance. = rough idle.
Tune for warm engine= poor cold performance
Tune for cold engine = poor hot engine performance.
This would be the same reason the secondaries opened for 45 seconds when the motor was cold... the fuel injection has an enrichment program, like a choke for carbs, additional fuel and air is used to keep the engine running till up to temp.
These are my own theories... they may be wrong... but i don't think so.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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tru195
Novice Class
Posts: 64
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posted June 26, 2006 01:50 PM
maybe i missed it but what was the hp and trq???? graph possible???
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dubious
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posted June 26, 2006 01:52 PM
quote:
quote:
And.... I harassed, begged, and tried to extort the answer to the drivability issues,
He will deliver the result as soon as possible.
He's busy... don't bug him.
He'll tell all when its figured out!
NO we want bug him cause we know you will! IT is wicked fast.. So what kind of solution do you think he will have??? He said his ignition module is proably going to be ready next week...
To cure drivability issues, I would almost gaurantee it will have something to do with installing the secondary plates and controlling them, rather than not having them.
I have a good idea how but will leave it to him to spill the beans when he is ready.
I would almost bet the farm, kawi changes the ecm next year and gives us full power above 2500 rpm... throttle valves open above 2500 , rather than 5000.... then a gain maybe not.
It would be an easy performance gain, to compete or beat the 2008 busa bottom end power.
add larger TB's, and 1/2 point of compression... voila! 220 crank HP!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Drowland
Zone Head
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posted June 26, 2006 03:31 PM
Good dreaming there
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gtracing
Expert Class
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posted June 26, 2006 03:47 PM
With brocks map, the beast feels a lot more tame than without it. I will never put the secondaries back in, as the bike feels exactly how I want it to now(pipe, secondaries removed, pc3).
____________
2006 Red ZX14: Brock pipe, PC3, Removed secondaries
2005 Red SRT10 Ram
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Nukedog
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted June 26, 2006 03:57 PM
"to compete or beat the 2008 busa bottom end power"
That is some funny stuff there....
But this is even better....
"voila! 220 crank HP!"
Ain't gonna happen with the ZZR1400...
____________
02 Busa...Turbo...
09 YZF-R6S...
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Vegasdude
Zone Head
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posted June 26, 2006 04:12 PM
There's another solution coming, same performance but real smooth.
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serius blk
Zone Head
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posted June 26, 2006 04:17 PM
gt hows yours running. Are experiencing the same problems brock was refering to.
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serius blk
Zone Head
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posted June 26, 2006 04:19 PM
Hey also gt did you get your pipe sent express or what. Im going to order everything tomorrow. Meg,pc3,speedoheeler. I wish someone had a highflow airfilter for it. Anyway I was going to see if i could get it here before the 4th of July.
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dubious
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posted June 26, 2006 06:16 PM
tru195: .....I haven't dyno'd my bike .
Will ask brock for dyno's with flies out and mapped.
Nuke dog:
It will be good... I'd venture to say reasonably stronger than the busa ever was below 5000, and as we all know stock it is substansially stronger up top.
Suzuki is going to have to follow the same stricter guidlines for emissions as kawi has already done... it will be more difficult than it was in 1999- 2006 to produce an engine that meets euro3 standards, and makes yet more power.
Brock is selling Busa piston kits, cams the whole shebang... and he told me himself it STILL doesn't produce the performance the 14 does uncorked... no internals touched!
the 2006 zx14 already makes 197 crank hp, with smaller TB than the busa, zx 12, or zx10.
every point of compression if the heat is managed effectively, is good for 10 % which would equal 216 crank HP in theory.
Add 2 mm larger TB and make the flies more like idle controlers than power restrictors and you have a stock bike with gobs of bottom end power, and tons on top.
Hey the points I've made are valid, now it might be dreaming that they build it to stay on top!
Stock was a little leary of what I pulled up beside, cause a new literbike, or uncorked busa could pull the stock 14 if a slight error was made on my part.
I now feel very confident that even if I make a mistake the 14 has balls to pull out of it.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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dbeadling
Zone Head
Posts: 699
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posted June 26, 2006 06:41 PM
you guys get the cigar. the ecm needs to be fooled during lower rpms to keep it streetable but it can be worked out. the kawasaki boys are a smart bunch and decided to keep the beast at higher rpms so us average folk dont go out and kill ourselfs with power slides while driving 30 mph.but whos average when you buy a hyper bike.... you want a hyperbike at all rpms
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GTRacing
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posted June 26, 2006 06:44 PM
I really don't see any problems with how the bike runs now with the map.. Occasionally if I let the bike sit for a bout 15-20 minutes and go out and ride it again the idle fluctuates a little bit. Other than that, I feel the bike is a blast to ride with the butterflies removed and the map installed. Low RPM power is incredible even in 6th at 40mph..
One thing that I noticed today when installing the map(brock noted something about the bike shutting off). Upon warmup my TPS sensor reads 2%(I assume this is the auto fast start).. I never messed with this before so I went to twist the throttle closed by hand to see if it would go back to zero %. What do you know, the bike wanted to shut off... I never noticed this before while riding b/c I always let the bike warm up a bit before I take off.
I think transit time from them to us is 4 days... Check it out on the UPS site before ordering. They made a mistake with mine(quoted me three days on accident) and ended up sending me one second day air just so that I would get it before the weekend(best service I've ever had)
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dubious
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posted June 26, 2006 06:59 PM
GTRacing.
I hear ya .
Maybe the elevation is different there.
I leaned out the idle area, it runs rough cold but acceptable when warm now.
My issue was I didn't want to piss of the neighborhood, so i idle down around residential area's, and the surge was highly exagerated when in gear from 2000 down to 1200 rpm.
The bike would shidder and buck, till I pullin the clutch and let the drive train settle with the idle.
I found it pulls much better from idle too.
I know its nit picky but in the rain on wet roads, idle is probably where one should be cornering in lower gears... alot safer down there in slippery conditions, but with the bucking , burping, surging through drivetrain lash... NOT good.
Like i posted, I really beleive it is relative to intake air density(temp and altitude) engine temp, due to poor idle vaccum from long duration cams.
For the gentlemen looking for slightly less than hooligan power, Brock has a fix in the works.
Hang tough ... it won't be long,
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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serius blk
Zone Head
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posted June 26, 2006 07:11 PM
I want the hooligan power. I just dont want to have to put them back in once out. But for now i guess i'll just get the map for them in and wait for brock. Like you said he still has the fly out maps.
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GTRacing
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posted June 26, 2006 07:34 PM
I have none of the mentioned problems with bucking etc... It may be the temp/ elevation... I would say it's close to if not over 95 here every day! They are easy enough to swap out that if it gets cooler here I may toss them back in. I love working on my bike, just don't see a reason(for myself) to put them back in at the moment. That, and I have a long time to wait before it actually gets cool again(if that actually happens this winter
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dubious
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posted June 26, 2006 07:42 PM
Edited By: dubious on 26 Jun 2006 20:43
Funny, as Brock has noted the same idle issues as me.
Im at 1000 ft, and about 90f last couple days.
GTracinng, did you plug the kleen system?
Mine only seemed to exhibit these idle surging after i installed the muzzy block off plates!
Coincidence I don't know?
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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GuNNer
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posted June 26, 2006 07:48 PM
IDEA......... The 12R had a surge issue that was cured by installing a small jet in the map sensor line if I'm not mistaken. It kept the signal more steady and slowed the ECU reaction to changes with that pressure. Kind of a shock absorber if you will. It was called the Pilot Jet Mod. Maybe the same thing going on here??
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dubious
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Needs more time to ride!
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posted June 26, 2006 07:53 PM
HMMMM Brock?
I call him tomorrow.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
|
GTRacing
Expert Class
Posts: 159
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posted June 26, 2006 08:33 PM
Weird that u mention plugging up the Kleen system. After I posted that I went to check my mail... and there it was the plug I was waiting for. I installed it before I came and read this post. I will let you know how it runs tomorrow morning.
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