gtracing
Expert Class
Posts: 159
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posted June 11, 2006 08:22 AM
just out of curiosity what gear did you do those tests in?? I just saw another post where a guy registered more power in the higher gears vs. the lowers(at those RPM's).... That leads me to believe that it still may run lean in the first few gears?
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2006 Red ZX14: Brock pipe, PC3, Removed secondaries
2005 Red SRT10 Ram
  
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jw
Novice Class
Posts: 81
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posted June 11, 2006 08:36 AM
quote:
OK am i missing something here??? I know on a Busa that it has air injection tubes going to the exhaust and that would make air fuel numbers lean at the pipe... But looking at my zx14 when i changed to my muzzy pipe i saw NO air injection pipes... It looks to me that the PAIR valve pluming goes to the air cleaner box on the zx14... If that is the case it would cause no lean reading at the tail pipe.... I have no idea who this guy Ojref
is and what he knows or how he came up with his numbers ... I think we should wait and see what Brock will say about this...Ojref I'm not putting you down or poo pooing your work, i thank you for the work you have done so far but i would like the Pros to chime in to back up your data ....Smokin ...
On my old 11 (I know, few generations ago) the air injection was in the head directly over the exhaust valves. Nothing into the exhaust pipes. I don't know if its the same on the 14 but the tubes may not be in the pipes but in the heads themselves.
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14black
Expert Class
Posts: 280
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posted June 11, 2006 09:35 AM
Soooo, are there totally definitive results that say that rippin' the flies out doesn't produce a dangerous lean condition??? Gettin' a little confused over here...lol...thanks...
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted June 11, 2006 10:06 AM
I do remember brock tell one of the guys to plug the air hose that goes in to the airfilter.The guy was having problems with popping in the exhaust when he would slow down. That virtually the same thing. He just didnt block it with plates. He justed pluged the hose. Its on one of these post.
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Ojref
Expert Class
Posts: 336
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posted June 11, 2006 12:01 PM
 Edited By: Ojref on 11 Jun 2006 13:08
quote:
OK am i missing something here??? I know on a Busa that it has air injection tubes going to the exhaust and that would make air fuel numbers lean at the pipe... But looking at my zx14 when i changed to my muzzy pipe i saw NO air injection pipes... It looks to me that the PAIR valve pluming goes to the air cleaner box on the zx14... If that is the case it would cause no lean reading at the tail pipe.... I have no idea who this guy Ojref
is and what he knows or how he came up with his numbers ... I think we should wait and see what Brock will say about this...Ojref I'm not putting you down or poo pooing your work, i thank you for the work you have done so far but i would like the Pros to chime in to back up your data ....Smokin ...
I've owned a ZRX-1200 before, even so I'm a newcomer to the Kawasaki tuning world. I've only heard of "Brock" lately, and read some of his antecedoetes regarding his foray into tuning on this bike. I'm of the opinion that his is a bit of a hack in some respects - and having known Ivan for some years, and having used some of his products, I feel the same way about him. In this regard, I'm a hack too - however, I applied a different methodology utilizing my automotive background, hence the reason I looked at EGTs and questioned the secondary air system. 
Bottom line is, this subject needs more extensive research. I hope what I did causes the so-called "pros" to refine their angle of attack and prompts more subjective analysis into the issue. Only Kawasaki has the real hard data regarding the secondary butterflies, and unless a partner like Muzzy is in the know and is developing product, I don't think they will be willing to share. Since there is a "crate motor" 1400 on the market now, hopefuly performance and tuning data is in Muzzy's hands now, since that motor is intended for more general use and not subject to emmissions or saftey regulation standards.
In any event, if you feel that this proceedure is too risky, no harm in leaving the plates in place. I'm sure in a few months better data will be avalible and sucess will be repeatable.
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2006 Kawasaki ZX-14 Ninja, Red now with mo' Brock's in my lyfe
1991 Yamaha Vmax - Because I need a mule to carry the manhood
2002 Ford Lightning - Ford GT Aluminum block engined, 802HP 911TQ now WhippleCharged
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Ojref
Expert Class
Posts: 336
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posted June 11, 2006 12:05 PM
quote:
just out of curiosity what gear did you do those tests in?? I just saw another post where a guy registered more power in the higher gears vs. the lowers(at those RPM's).... That leads me to believe that it still may run lean in the first few gears?
There seems to be a extremely leaniant timing curve in the lower gears. I believe max timing on the stock 1-3 is only -8TDC. <4K RPM.
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2006 Kawasaki ZX-14 Ninja, Red now with mo' Brock's in my lyfe
1991 Yamaha Vmax - Because I need a mule to carry the manhood
2002 Ford Lightning - Ford GT Aluminum block engined, 802HP 911TQ now WhippleCharged
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TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted June 11, 2006 12:13 PM
quote:
I've owned a ZRX-1200 before, even so I'm a newcomer to the Kawasaki tuning world. I've only heard of "Brock" lately, and read some of his antecedoetes regarding his foray into tuning on this bike. I'm of the opinion that his is a bit of a hack in some respects - and having known Ivan for some years, and having used some of his products, I feel the same way about him. In this regard, I'm a hack too - however, I applied a different methodology utilizing my automotive background, hence the reason I looked at EGTs and questioned the secondary air system.
Bottom line is, this subject needs more extensive research. I hope what I did causes the so-called "pros" to refine their angle of attack and prompts more subjective analysis into the issue. Only Kawasaki has the real hard data regarding the secondary butterflies, and unless a partner like Muzzy is in the know and is developing product, I don't think they will be willing to share. Since there is a "crate motor" 1400 on the market now, hopefuly performance and tuning data is in Muzzy's hands now, since that motor is intended for more general use and not subject to emmissions or saftey regulation standards.
Brock is a great guy and it certainly looks like he knows what he is talking about. He is probably in the same league as people like Lee Shierts. On the other hand, Rob Muzzy is a bona fide racing legend. I personally would take anything Brock says as good information and anything Muzzy says as dead on solid.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted June 11, 2006 12:29 PM
They're both great fun to drink with! 
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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TJ
Zone Head
Posts: 604
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posted June 11, 2006 12:33 PM
quote:
They're both great fun to drink with!
I'm not sure that is a prerequisite for motorcycle tuning knowledge. I know lots of very talented and fun drinkers that I would never let near my bike...
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aughtsix
Expert Class
Posts: 277
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posted June 11, 2006 01:25 PM
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RICH CRAFT 1
Zone Head
Posts: 681
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posted June 11, 2006 02:00 PM
Smokin.. About the air injection they are like the ZX11/ ZZR1200/ ZX12. There is a hose that runs from the bottom of the air box right hand side and goes into the top of the valve cover and is restricted by two reed valves then is drilled down through the head into the exhaust port. If you pull this out of the air box and plug it with a large marble or some bolcking device its about 5'8in hose this device injects fresh air from the air box into the exhaust and causes higher temperatures to the catalytic converter. Im sure that Brock had this plugged off. The difference we were talking about is 15.8 AFto Brock's 16.0 which is nothing. These FI bikes run very lean at crusing speeds. I ran my 14 friday night, mods strapped lowered 1 1/2 in Brock Genisis3 air corection 1.0750. 1/8 times 6.18@ 118.11. 330 times 4.11@ 92 60ft 1.57. Stock wheel base air filter in rider 180 pounds 2400 miles.
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Red 06 ZX14 RR
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jack69
Novice Class
Posts: 50
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posted June 11, 2006 03:52 PM
quote:
I did the GT mod today...the bike has instant throttle response but in some higher gears at 5K needs some remapping...
I didn't notice the engine or coolant running any hotter than usual during city or highway riding...
In reponse to Fish's comments:
No question that the secondary butterflies were put in to smooth FI...however I feel it was probably more of a safety issue than anything else. Does mapping need to occur to change the F/A mix? Yes, I'm sure it does. I will probably go back to stock until I get the PC3 an the pipe on a Dyno to re-map, just in case the engine is running to lean on the bottom end. (don't want to put a hole in my pistons).
The bike pulls like a Busa down low now and doesn't really give up till 10K. At 3K, she has more grunt than you could imagine. If you rode a Busa and you ride this bike, they are the same from 3K up now (but with power advantage to the 14)...but the 14 pulls harder above 5.5 than the Busa does. There seems to be a need to map in the 5K range as in the higher gears only; there is some very slight lag which will be addressed through mapping.
My feeling is that all of the mapping can be addressed through a PC3 and IMO, this wil be the most effective way to go once done.
For anyone who is not going to pipe but wants the power unleashed below 5K, a PC3 and removal of the butterfiles would work fine.
GT, thanks for all the pioneering on your ride, it is the biggest part of the answer.
Oh yeah, I noticed in 6th at 80+, she pulls away much harder than prior to removal of the butterflies...now it's really sick power!
Yep, like what Nav said. Thanks GT for the info.
I know this is totally unrelated but I had/have a '69 Camaro with the DZ302. The engine has a huge cam and would fall on it's face below 3500 RPM, fron there to 9500 it was fast as all hell.
One of the leading Holley books discussed a lot of fixes for the bottom end. Metering blocks off of 660 center squirters (without power valve bosses).
But the very best mods mentioned was to drill the primary side throttle plates 1/64". This allowed more airflow on the bottom and helped keep the motor from loading up so bad. Another cool fix was to take the choke plates out and cut the corners at a 45, about an inch in. That allowed the fast idle to work without the motor loading up terribly.
Point is, drilling, milling and modifying plates has been a hot rodders option for a long time. I'm sure there is a happy medium out there somewhere. I'll start by drilling my plates a 1/16th at a time. Also the full Muzzy system comes with O2 bungs so the mixture can be checked when changes are made.
Don't give up, the solution is out there somewhere, we just have to find it.
Oh, and through a lot of experimentation and patience I got that little 302 running very well.
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'03 Mille Silver - ZX-14 Blue
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 11, 2006 03:58 PM
quote:
They're both great fun to drink with!
I don't give a fuck -- I don't drink... 
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FYYFF!!!
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted June 11, 2006 04:14 PM
I really really want to pull them butterflies out and then go to the track with the new found TQ and HP ...I wish i still had my wide band power comander off my turbo bike so i could see the A/F ratios for myself... But untill i see some hard data and dyno sheets i'm going to hold off pulling them.... Call me chicken if you like it's ok with me because i have been called worse....
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted June 11, 2006 04:15 PM
Chicken 
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 11, 2006 04:17 PM
quote:
Chicken
+1
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FYYFF!!!
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted June 11, 2006 04:19 PM
quote:
Chicken
I saw that coming .....lol lol
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 11, 2006 04:20 PM
Bet ya did...:P
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FYYFF!!!
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted June 11, 2006 04:58 PM
quote:
just out of curiosity what gear did you do those tests in?? I just saw another post where a guy registered more power in the higher gears vs. the lowers(at those RPM's).... That leads me to believe that it still may run lean in the first few gears?
That was my dyno sheets. It actually runs too fat(richer) in the 4 lower gears (secondaries remain closed) where the power differential is. In 5th & 6th it leans out maybe a touch too much(ecm opens those secondaries). This is why I believe you should be able to pull the secondaries w/o problem. But, I'am going to wait on that until I install a ZX14 specific PCIIIusb & Pipe.Then I will tune it & post the results.
Ya I know I'm Chicken.
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200mphclub
Novice Class
Posts: 37
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posted June 11, 2006 09:38 PM
board today so I thought hmmm, lets go pull throttle plates. Holy s--t!! It was like I opened a box of cracker jacks and found a prize!!! Now its a fast bike!!! no issues or funny noises or sounds!!
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ZXLNT
Needs a job
Kawpuke Extraordinare
Posts: 2853
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posted June 11, 2006 10:48 PM
quote:
There seems to be a extremely leaniant timing curve in the lower gears. I believe max timing on the stock 1-3 is only -8TDC. <4K RPM.
Have you done actual measurement to come up with that figure??
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mrsantafe
Zone Head
Posts: 521
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posted June 12, 2006 08:17 AM
Hey fellas my bike goes to the dyno tommorrow for a custom tune. I have the muzzy pipe, schnitz powercommander and butterfly valves removed, pair valve still attached.
My question is do i need to have that line at the bottom of the airbox plugged so i can get an accurate tune??
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9.78@155.13 mph 1.71 60 ft @ a near mile high dragstrip
2006 ZX14 gone
2006 ZX10r (Wifes street bike)
2004 zx10r (her race bike)
2002 ZX12 (still kicking a--)
2007 gsxr 1k (race bike)
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 12, 2006 08:40 AM
You need to block off the pare valve to get an accurate AFR...otherwise you'll be running to rich.
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FYYFF!!!
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mrsantafe
Zone Head
Posts: 521
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posted June 12, 2006 08:59 AM
FBA How do i do that?
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9.78@155.13 mph 1.71 60 ft @ a near mile high dragstrip
2006 ZX14 gone
2006 ZX10r (Wifes street bike)
2004 zx10r (her race bike)
2002 ZX12 (still kicking a--)
2007 gsxr 1k (race bike)
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted June 12, 2006 09:10 AM
Edited By: speedgene on 12 Jun 2006 10:13
My approach; Roll the bike up as is and take a pull. Remove the breather tube and stick a (seal the end) screwdriver handle in the end then take another pull. The opening in the frame (where the breather tube goes) is post A/C, so seal it off too. Unplug nothing electronically from the DFI system. Let the Air Switching Valve read both settings (plugged/unplugged) looped into the DFI. Pull the Switching valve electrics, see if it spits a code? If not, then run with the breather closed off/switching valve out of play, and make another pull? What improvement (if any of the above combinations) happened before playing with the Commander mapping?
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E-tard
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