smokinZX14
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posted June 08, 2006 02:57 PM
 Edited By: smokinZX14 on 8 Jun 2006 15:58
That's great news !!!! Brocks on the case !!!! I'll pull mine as soon as a map is ready ....
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
  
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Vegasdude
Zone Head
Posts: 821
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posted June 08, 2006 03:06 PM
Brock called me and said the same thing. I didn't want to post until his approval. From the above post it looks like he approved it...................
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dubious
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posted June 08, 2006 04:18 PM
quote:
Who says kaw cant make a power motor. Looks to me they did preventive things to keep the power down. Ha Ha Kaw. I would how long did they think it was going to be before people tap into the motors true power. I think the bike still has more hidden potential in the ecm. Only time will tell.
Never mind the ecm... small potatoes.
There is a lot of potential power lurking within that motor, and I'm talking stock bore and stroke....LOTS left on the table! LOTS.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 08, 2006 04:24 PM
Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 8 Jun 2006 17:26
quote:
Was there an increase in top end hp? So if one already had a pipe and pc. Would it be safe to add about 105 at 2500 rpm and then add 15% percent at 3k then maybe 12% in the 3500 rpm cell until it gets to a dyno? Lastly, was the 16.0 af ratio only at 100% throttle?
thx
No increase in top end power guys and you shouldn't cares because that will be taken care of with a pipe/can and mapping...
Now, the increase of 20 LBS in the 3-4K range is way, way bigger than an increase of 20LBS at 10K because it represents a 35%+ power increase over the 60+lbs TQ you have now (between3-4K) and once its properly mapped, that will be more like 25+ LBS at 3-4K...that is some sick shit guys...if you took that power increase (35%) at the top of the band, you would be putting out almost 155LBS tq at the crank at around 7.2K...and that is something you not only feel, but would blast the bike from here to eternity...so imagine the gains down low...
Anyway you slice this, the bike (with plates removed) makes awesome power and TQ down low where it counts in the street...add a PC, mapping and a pipe and you have a bike that'll spank 1397 Busa's with cams (and all with NO motor mods)!
My Busa pulled almost 88LBS TQ (SAE) at 3.5K with a slip on Yosh, air box mod and a PC3...this bike WILL pull way more with similar mods and that's what I've been saying all along.
Now you can understand why I get so annoyed when guys like TRE-FUCKER lie like this.
THE BEAST IS NOW UNLEASHED. 
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FYYFF!!!
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fastestbusaaround
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I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 08, 2006 04:30 PM
quote:
quote:
Who says kaw cant make a power motor. Looks to me they did preventive things to keep the power down. Ha Ha Kaw. I would how long did they think it was going to be before people tap into the motors true power. I think the bike still has more hidden potential in the ecm. Only time will tell.
Never mind the ecm... small potatoes.
There is a lot of potential power lurking within that motor, and I'm talking stock bore and stroke....LOTS left on the table! LOTS.
After the standard mods, add at least another 60 RWHP (my guess) for a larger bore/stroke and cams/heads...for not a ton of cash...don't need turbo's or S/C's unless you want to launch it straight up toward the moon like a Saturn V rocket...LOL
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FYYFF!!!
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swiftkart
Expert Class
Posts: 349
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posted June 08, 2006 05:13 PM
Edited By: swiftkart on 8 Jun 2006 21:46
quote:
Was there an increase in top end hp? So if one already had a pipe and pc. Would it be safe to add about 105 at 2500 rpm and then add 15% percent at 3k then maybe 12% in the 3500 rpm cell until it gets to a dyno? Lastly, was the 16.0 af ratio only at 100% throttle?
thx
We didn't get into all of the details, he was trying to get ready for pro star in Memphis, but the valves are fully open up top anyway so I wouldn't think there would be a noticeable gain there, but I could be wrong...richening it up 12% to 15% would help a lot, but it's most likely going to make even nore than the 10 hp/20 ft-lbs he saw so you better hang on!
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2006 ZX14, Brock CT-Meg, PC, ignition module, E85, 214 lbs suited, 8.96@152.32 1.46 60'
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dubious
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Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted June 08, 2006 07:00 PM
Edited By: dubious on 8 Jun 2006 22:09
quote:
quote:
quote:
Who says kaw cant make a power motor. Looks to me they did preventive things to keep the power down. Ha Ha Kaw. I would how long did they think it was going to be before people tap into the motors true power. I think the bike still has more hidden potential in the ecm. Only time will tell.
Never mind the ecm... small potatoes.
There is a lot of potential power lurking within that motor, and I'm talking stock bore and stroke....LOTS left on the table! LOTS.
After the standard mods, add at least another 60 RWHP (my guess) for a larger bore/stroke and cams/heads...for not a ton of cash...don't need turbo's or S/C's unless you want to launch it straight up toward the moon like a Saturn V rocket...LOL
I would guess 30-40 crank hp/ 20-30 rwhp without touching the bore or stroke!
All I will say is I had alot of parts on the bench today looking at things, and inside stuff!
There is more yet to derestrict!
It will cost some bottom end power, but for drag racers.... quite a bit more HP up top!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted June 08, 2006 07:13 PM
That's Great news! I'm just glad that someone with some creds. confirmed my apprehension with removing those flaps w/o a fuel management system in line(PCIII usb).
That free Dyno tuning is still avail. to anyone w/ a jacked ZX10 PC & no flaps! Will Dial you in & post results.
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fastestbusaaround
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I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 09, 2006 02:01 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Who says kaw cant make a power motor. Looks to me they did preventive things to keep the power down. Ha Ha Kaw. I would how long did they think it was going to be before people tap into the motors true power. I think the bike still has more hidden potential in the ecm. Only time will tell.
Never mind the ecm... small potatoes.
There is a lot of potential power lurking within that motor, and I'm talking stock bore and stroke....LOTS left on the table! LOTS.
After the standard mods, add at least another 60 RWHP (my guess) for a larger bore/stroke and cams/heads...for not a ton of cash...don't need turbo's or S/C's unless you want to launch it straight up toward the moon like a Saturn V rocket...LOL
I would guess 30-40 crank hp/ 20-30 rwhp without touching the bore or stroke!
All I will say is I had alot of parts on the bench today looking at things, and inside stuff!
There is more yet to derestrict!
It will cost some bottom end power, but for drag racers.... quite a bit more HP up top!
With a PC3, Ignition module, pipe/cans, plate removal...low end loss should be minimal. In any case, since most people haven't removed the plates, they'll see massive gains throughout the entire band (particularily on the low end) once all these mods have been done! I'm waiting till I get my parts from Brock and then will take the bike to the Dyno to have them installed and tweaked...If I get 184+RWHP and the more robust low end, I'll be very, very happy indeed! 184 (SAE) is my goal with the whole setup. That should be about 205+ at the crank (without RAM Air)
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FYYFF!!!
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gtracing
Expert Class
Posts: 159
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posted June 09, 2006 02:47 PM
did you order your brock exhast FBA? You said something about a polished Ti?
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 09, 2006 03:10 PM
I was just waiting for Brock to call me...he's back Tuesday. My 10R was polished TI, I imagine he does the 14 as well...I'll post as soon as I get news...and his systems are really solid and well built. BTW, we owe you for that plate removal discovery and having the kahoonies to be the 1st to try! Great find there!! I think this is going to be a very popular mod around here...
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FYYFF!!!
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gtracing
Expert Class
Posts: 159
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posted June 09, 2006 03:17 PM
Thanks FBA, now to get it tuned.. All the talk about running lean is keeping her in the garage for the moment. have ant pics of the polished Ti on the 10r?
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fastestbusaaround
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Posts: 7889
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posted June 09, 2006 07:08 PM
I'll take some tomorrow and post them for you...
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FYYFF!!!
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mrsantafe
Zone Head
Posts: 521
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posted June 10, 2006 12:47 PM
I suppose no one has done this mod and had it on the dyno Sooo, this coming tuesday my bike will be getting a custom tune. It has the muzzypipe(full exhaust), schnitz pc, butterfly valves removed. We shall se what happens. I'll post a dynosheet of it afterwards if anyone is interested.
Stock: 163 sae, im hoping with the pipe, pc, tune, butterfly flappers removed it will make at least 175 hp.
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9.78@155.13 mph 1.71 60 ft @ a near mile high dragstrip
2006 ZX14 gone
2006 ZX10r (Wifes street bike)
2004 zx10r (her race bike)
2002 ZX12 (still kicking a--)
2007 gsxr 1k (race bike)
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Ojref
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Posts: 336
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posted June 10, 2006 03:31 PM
Edited By: Ojref on 10 Jun 2006 16:39
quote:
Thanks FBA, now to get it tuned.. All the talk about running lean is keeping her in the garage for the moment. have ant pics of the polished Ti on the 10r?
I removed my plates today, and took a little different approach to the whole "lean" issue.
I have a lot of experience in the automotive world of tuning, especialy concerning forced induction, but not a lot of FI bike tuning experience, so I leaned a little on Metric Cycles and Park 10 CBR Performance. Modern sportbikes have a secondary air system on them for air-exhaust gas injecton, which is supposed to lower NO polution and burn off extra HC's in the stream. In order to run a accurate AFR test, this system should be disabled. I do not believe that Ivan or Brock thought to disable this system, however today we did. We also set up to measure EGT's before and after the butterfly valves were removed.
2500-6000 RPM roll on, outside temp = 98F, bike coolant = 198F
With valves = 1380F AFR = 13.1
Without = 1378F AFR = 13.2
Crusing, 3.2K in 6th (dyno loaded to simulate 70mph)
With valves = 1402F AFR = 15.8
Without = 1406F AFR = 15.8
Tip in at 3.2K showed an immediate surge in fuel to 12.8 then smoothed back out again, Seems typical of a modern FI "run-lean" cruising habits of an automotive engine application with cats.
So, what's the issue? No idea. All I can tell you is the HP and TQ increased about 10 HP and 22 FT pounds with the plates removed, but the AFR's at WOT seemed the same in both cases.
Volumetrics of the engine won't change with the plates removed. There is still the same amount of backpressure from the exhaust and airflow from the inlet as before, provided that you don't change anything from stock. We found no signs of detonation. Keep in mind that we were using 93 octane fuel, which in itself is a nice safeguard on an engine tuned for 90-89 octane.
I wouldn't worry about engine damage when removing the plates, however a tune should help with the timing advance and LFT and SFT tables down low, which are lacking gears 1-4.
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2006 Kawasaki ZX-14 Ninja, Red now with mo' Brock's in my lyfe
1991 Yamaha Vmax - Because I need a mule to carry the manhood
2002 Ford Lightning - Ford GT Aluminum block engined, 802HP 911TQ now WhippleCharged
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smokinZX14
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posted June 10, 2006 03:46 PM
So you are saying that all you did is remove or block the pair valve and the a/f ratio was fine ?
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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gtracing
Expert Class
Posts: 159
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posted June 10, 2006 04:06 PM
great news Ojref, now I can take my bike out of the garage and ride it!! Thanks!!
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2006 Red ZX14: Brock pipe, PC3, Removed secondaries
2005 Red SRT10 Ram
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Ojref
Expert Class
Posts: 336
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posted June 10, 2006 04:18 PM
quote:
So you are saying that all you did is remove or block the pair valve and the a/f ratio was fine ?
No, we blocked the "PAIR" valve for the test. The valve will throw off AFR testing to my understanding if left enabled.
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2006 Kawasaki ZX-14 Ninja, Red now with mo' Brock's in my lyfe
1991 Yamaha Vmax - Because I need a mule to carry the manhood
2002 Ford Lightning - Ford GT Aluminum block engined, 802HP 911TQ now WhippleCharged
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 10, 2006 09:25 PM
So in your opinion -- and it sounds like you have very extensive proof and knowledge, there isn't really any need to remap those ranges to get more fuel happening? I guess the pair valve would throw off the tests because it's not getting accurate measure on the exhaust due to the fresh air induction AFTER the fact...you know, I never would have thought about that. This means that any bike equipped with a pair valve must be disabled for tuning purposes...interesting Ojef....
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FYYFF!!!
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zxbob
Pro
Posts: 1692
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posted June 10, 2006 09:36 PM
Measuring you EGTs is the best tuning method, i've used it to tune my turbo
bikes and the old GN.
Mapping should still be done for the best power. I think a PC on a bone stock
bike would benifit from a "tuning session".
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Good parts aint cheap and cheap parts aint good !
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swiftkart
Expert Class
Posts: 349
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posted June 10, 2006 09:50 PM
Edited By: swiftkart on 10 Jun 2006 22:51
I pulled the plates and went out and rode it late this evening and I must say the bike pulls like a sob, blew me away with the night and day difference and I'm still stock except for the 16t, with a pipe and pc it's got to be major scary because it's scary as hell now, there is nothing out there that should be able to keep up doing roll on's with the plates removed, sick acceleration!
____________
2006 ZX14, Brock CT-Meg, PC, ignition module, E85, 214 lbs suited, 8.96@152.32 1.46 60'
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dubious
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Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted June 10, 2006 09:59 PM
yup see my post... thabks Brock and Bikeland for a few details.
Its retarded.... heh ehe eheh
I'm in love.... 
Hmmm, scuse me as I insert pecker to tail pipe!
Really though, I am elated!
Like drugs dood! Adrenaline is under rated!
My wife said i "got this shit eating grin, that won't go away. Like a 2 year old up to no good!"
and really.... I can't remember the last time I yelled inside my helmet so much!
YEAH.... WHOOOO.... Mother F..... nasty bitch....
you get the point!
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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tslewisz
Expert Class
Posts: 328
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posted June 11, 2006 04:48 AM
All tuners disable the PAIR valve (Suzuki) or KLEEN Air system (Kawasaki) when sniffing the exhaust, exactly for the reason you specify, Oj.
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smokinZX14
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Posts: 10197
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posted June 11, 2006 06:14 AM
OK am i missing something here??? I know on a Busa that it has air injection tubes going to the exhaust and that would make air fuel numbers lean at the pipe... But looking at my zx14 when i changed to my muzzy pipe i saw NO air injection pipes... It looks to me that the PAIR valve pluming goes to the air cleaner box on the zx14... If that is the case it would cause no lean reading at the tail pipe.... I have no idea who this guy Ojref
is and what he knows or how he came up with his numbers ... I think we should wait and see what Brock will say about this...Ojref I'm not putting you down or poo pooing your work, i thank you for the work you have done so far but i would like the Pros to chime in to back up your data ....Smokin ...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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fastestbusaaround
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I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 11, 2006 07:56 AM
Any possibility the valve flows air right directly into the manifold from inside?
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FYYFF!!!
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