fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 06, 2006 01:30 PM
You mean it isn't closed loop...thought closed loop had feeback from the O2 sensors? Am I mistaken? Wouldn' t be the 1st time...
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navigator
Expert Class
Posts: 308
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posted June 06, 2006 01:40 PM
quote:
Navigator...
its a closed loop system so it will not adjust fuel for lean or rich conditions... no O2 sensor!
My cell died , so i will have to call Brock tomorrow AM, and see if he is willing to give it a go on the dyno, maybe set us up with the proper mapping for the mod!
Ok so maybe we need an O2 sensor and a Wide Band Commander. The price increases so we hope the performance improvement will be proportionate.
It's fun to speculate, but like everyone else has already said, a little dyno time will sort all of this out.
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Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.
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dubious
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Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted June 06, 2006 01:52 PM
 Edited By: dubious on 6 Jun 2006 14:55
The problem with these bikes is they rev so fast and loads change so quickly, that the industry has for the most part given up trying to produce a FI system which operates off the O2, because the O2 sensor, lambda's included as accurate as they are, do not respond fast enough to the changing rpm's and loads.
Yes, I meant is not closed loop! My bad typing!
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted June 06, 2006 02:30 PM
The electric motor is super fast... trust me. Besides, the range is short to turn the subthrottle plates = WOT. You want the sub's shaft out of play as well. Problem is the sub's shaft is going to make the arm in the Mikuni gear box drop away from the driven gear on the electric motor. Once the arm drops, who is going to tell you how to re-time the Mikuni gear box to the sub's shaft?...(short of hit-and-miss). Now you have a whirling electric motor that spins, doesn't stop spinning, and... oops, a code drops in play rendering the drivability back into limp-mode. Been there, done that.
Take the sub's TPS, remove it from throttle body. First turn the key on, watch the subthrottle move the main throttle open for a cold start. Visualize where the sub's TPS is set? Design an insert where you can incrementally move the TPS into the "cold start" mode. Ride thru the rpm range, then mechanically move the sub's TPS sensor (internal) wheel to normal run(?). Keep the sub's shaft in place. Seal the shaft's end (TPS) so it doesn't suck (lean/unfiltered) air. Build a home made plate, or bracket so you can set the sub's TPS stationary. Make a rheostat type lever that you can feed incremental voltage to the ECM by moving the sub's TPS internal rheostat. Set the static TPS setting (on the bracket you made) to have a base output voltage reading with a range between 0.2 ~ 4.8V. Hook up the sub's TPS to the wire harness. Leave the sub plates off, but keep the motor and rod still in place; so as not to spit codes. Move the lever to "Morning Mode" and ride your heart out all you want at the bottom. Move the lever to "run-mode" for touring. If morning mode wants 3.1 volts to read the map, better make it 3.1, not 3.2 volts. Think Precision lever position building. This might be the closest way to set a Sport/Tour toggle type switch to the bike?
Ask Ridge if this has any feasibility of working?
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E-tard
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TeamSpeed
Expert Class
Posts: 449
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posted June 06, 2006 02:35 PM
Here is an idea for those of us on the fence over this mod. What if somebody could machine new secondary butterflies that were just a slightly smaller diameter over the stock ones, so that they would fall between what we have from the factory and what you guys are getting with no butterflies at all? No electronic changes needed, the secondaries still do part of what they were designed for, but we still get more low end grunt. Just a thought.
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted June 06, 2006 03:02 PM
I heard this one. Drill holes in the plates. Would still have plates working but would allow more air in to the throttle body. It would be between none and having them with out dealing with the computer.
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted June 06, 2006 03:11 PM
Edited By: speedgene on 6 Jun 2006 16:17
Morning mode serves (fuel) Wheaties.....Breakfast of Champions.
Drill -shave-remove-color the subthrottle plates if you want.....all you are doing is pouring AIR in an empty bowl....WHERE"S ARE THE WHEATIES (FUEL?)
That's right, I'm milking this thread too.
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E-tard
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fastestbusaaround
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I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 06, 2006 03:15 PM
quote:
I heard this one. Drill holes in the plates. Would still have plates working but would allow more air in to the throttle body. It would be between none and having them with out dealing with the computer.
If the mapping is running lean with the flies removed, it would still run lean with holes in them...you would still have to deal with the mapping (PC3). For me, I want the whole shebang! Take 'em off and map! I can decide how much throttle and when...instead of Kwak deciding for me...I can handle it.
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RICH CRAFT 1
Zone Head
Posts: 681
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posted June 06, 2006 03:27 PM
About opening the secondarys in cold run the secondarys arm adjust the idle speed at cold run. You may have noticed the idle up during cold starts.I road this bike saturday night and checked the fuel instant mileage at 4k it seemed to be getting the same mileage 45mpg. This bike cant make horse power without fuel and seems to want to lift the front wheel at 3.5k. it is a lot more fun to drive around town, before I would have to drop two gears to pass a car at 3.5k. not anymore.
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Red 06 ZX14 RR
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smokinZX14
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Posts: 10197
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posted June 06, 2006 03:32 PM
quote:
Morning mode serves (fuel) Wheaties.....Breakfast of Champions.
Drill -shave-remove-color the subthrottle plates if you want.....all you are doing is pouring AIR in an empty bowl....WHERE"S ARE THE WHEATIES (FUEL?)
That's right, I'm milking this thread too.
If more fuel was not going in with the valves removed it would not pick up power like it is ....If it was that lean it would just lean pop back though the intake or bog when the throttle was wacked on and thats not happening...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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fastestbusaaround
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I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 06, 2006 03:37 PM
and those of us who've done it can tell you, no popping at all, not even on decel under heavy load...nada...it's like I said, I think it was designed to be removed...
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted June 06, 2006 03:48 PM
Edited By: speedgene on 6 Jun 2006 16:54
smoke, the reason for no lean or popping is the inlet air sensor hooked to the DFI....it adjusts (pressure change) inside the venturi... there is your little extra trickle of fuel... no enough, but every little tweak builds more (ump-pa-pa) out of this puppy.
Play with the air screws.... you're not done boys.
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Drowland
Zone Head
Posts: 733
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posted June 06, 2006 04:04 PM
How come Brock hasn't spoke up????? Somebody PM him..He knows he needs to tell...
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ZREXER
Expert Class
Posts: 492
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posted June 06, 2006 04:20 PM
Gonna sit back and let all you bright guys figure out the best set up for the '14, then I'll look in to it. I have to say I applaud you guys diving in 'no holds bar' in working on getting the all the potential out of the '14.
I'm more inclined to get past the warranty mode before doing anything major to my bike..............but that's just me!
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted June 06, 2006 04:42 PM
i pm brock yesturday. He didnt come back with any answer. Remember in his response on the brock pipe pc topic. He said he would talk about several issues including this one. Maybe he already knows about it. Hes got the most hp out of the 14 so far. Just think of his mods with out air filter and this one together. Yea Yea More Power
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 06, 2006 04:47 PM
He mentioned to me that he felt that there was way too much power down low...
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speedgene
Zone Head
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posted June 06, 2006 05:24 PM
I doubt Brock being in his position will offer any speed tricks he finds. There is so much you can talk about before your competition catches wind of it .
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Ozzy
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need guberment cheese
Posts: 3172
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posted June 06, 2006 05:28 PM
Could be that the fuel/ing map is utilized by the ecu based on the primary throttle tps, and the secondary butterflys be controlled by the ecu based on a given set of tables that control the secondary opening rate.
The secondary opening rate would not affect the fuel/ing table, just act as a softener.
This could explain why just removing the plates allows the bike to behave as if it is cold. The fuel/ing curve maybe a single table not affected by the secondary tps.
I havent heard of anyone posting the a/f ratio, so who knows if this bike is lean or rich or spot on.
As for Cliff Randalls map for the 12R, it made my 12r run like a gas hog. all that map did to stop the 6k off/on switch was make it so rich it actually was bogging. I am not the only one that had this experiance with this map. Now it seems like that may be Cliffs answer for any problem?
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 06, 2006 05:32 PM
Speedgene...actually, while he may not post it, he will talk to his customers about it privately. In any case, this will be all over the web soon enough...I need to understand more about what you said about the gearbox arm dropping out...if that's the case, how would the ECU know where or when to re-engage? What type of feedback is there to determine position prior to drop out? I am curious in any case, because the ability to have 2 different modes available would be very trick. I can see the value of not having to think in corners about too much throttle, but also want the full power available in the street/highway. I won't need to have both solutions because I'm fine with leaving the butterflies out, if that's the only way it can be done.
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted June 06, 2006 05:33 PM
I dont know about that. Brock seems to be a good guy. He offers his tricks and information to help others. I think when he comes out with part2 of his diary we ll find out more info on 14 mods. Im just trying to wait as long as I can to see what mods people come up with. Its hard when you want more out of a good bike.
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fastestbusaaround
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I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted June 06, 2006 05:34 PM
quote:
Could be that the fuel/ing map is utilized by the ecu based on the primary throttle tps, and the secondary butterflys be controlled by the ecu based on a given set of tables that control the secondary opening rate.
The secondary opening rate would not affect the fuel/ing table, just act as a softener.
This could explain why just removing the plates allows the bike to behave as if it is cold. The fuel/ing curve maybe a single table not affected by the secondary tps.
I havent heard of anyone posting the a/f ratio, so who knows if this bike is lean or rich or spot on.
As for Cliff Randalls map for the 12R, it made my 12r run like a gas hog. all that map did to stop the 6k off/on switch was make it so rich it actually was bogging. I am not the only one that had this experiance with this map. Now it seems like that may be Cliffs answer for any problem?
So far, gas mileage seems to be the same or better...i'm riding in higher gears now, just because the power on demand is there without having to downshift, so maybe that's why I'm not seeing increased fuel consumption? Just a theory... 
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zx9rmal
Novice Class
Posts: 75
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posted June 06, 2006 05:46 PM
<>
Don't think so. First of all, pretty much all throttle plated attach to their shafts with screws. Second, do you really think Kawasaki would design in something like that, when the only result for them is the potential for increased warranty claims? More power = more stress. I don't think the mother ship is that good to us. They ARE in business after all.
Also, I may try this mod because it seems very possible that the lag in the subthrottle opening is stifling the low end. If I do it, I'm not worrying about low end leanness burning holes in pistons because at those rpm's, and at partial throttle, there is low stress (heat) on the motor, which would be evidenced by engine temp. At full throttle, fuel is there. So, if the bike feels noticeably more responsive at lower rpm's, it certainly shouldn't be excessively lean.
If I'm wrong, somebody tell me why.
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Mal Glanz
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
'12 ZX-14R
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fastestbusaaround
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I eat Fish...
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posted June 06, 2006 06:15 PM
All Busa's run like this without engine/drivetrain consequence...seems to me it's done more out of a liability response. The engine and drivetrain are built to withstand this and more...it's just that the average rider can't handle all that low end torque. If you look at some of the other TQ monsters out there, they all run with gobs of TQ at the low end of the spectrum...
1) FJR1300 makes even more low end TQ than the Busa or ZX at only 2K...in fact at 2K in 1st, you can loft the front end quite high with just a quick throttle snap (I owned an 04)...try that on a Busa or a 14, won't happen -- and that bike is much heavier than both of them.
2) Busa makes a ton of TQ down low
3) Goldwing -- tons of TQ down low
4) Triumph Rocket III - reaches 90% of its TQ at 1800 RPM - seriously fast and sick bike to ride, fucking jumps off the line like a huge cat..
5) ZZR1200 -- lots of low end TQ
The list goes on and on...
Hell, my 10R delivered more low end TQ than the 14 before this mod...and the 14 is very lean on low end TQ with the stock mapping, much more so than one would expect with a beast like this. So, I don't think this was done to lessen warranty claims as their first priority. But that's just my opinion, not fact.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted June 06, 2006 07:22 PM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 6 Jun 2006 20:23
sorry for not reading all of this, but when you re4moved the valves, did you leave the shaft in place so the computer still thought it was there (triggering no fault codes etc?) ..if you already said this.. sorry.. like I said I kinda skimmed to the end (hey! I'm lazy!)
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zx1kr
Pro
Posts: 1301
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posted June 06, 2006 08:36 PM
Somebody bring me a bike & we'll stick on the dyno & get answers instead of guessing.
Also the FI is open loop (no O2 Sensor in exhaust). & yes fish they are leaving the shaft in place just removing the flap.
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