speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted June 06, 2006 07:43 AM
BobC, there are 18 "service codes" related to the DFI. Pull the sub's gear motor wire harness, and the subthrottles remain closed. A code 62 will be set, and the bike will limp home. You'll have throttle response, but it will fall on it's face as you add more (Main) throttle.
Lock the sub's shaft open, and you still have the sub's TPS also set, ready to spit a code 32. It's somewhat futile chasing all of this. Well over my head to pursue. Probably RR (now working on the 12's ECU) is the only person close to tapping into the fuel maps.
No fuel at the bottom = no grunt. All you did with the sub plates is add more air. Where is the fuel?
"Keep knocking, keep knocking." (Collateral movie quote)...Someone might get lucky.
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gtracing
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posted June 06, 2006 07:56 AM
why go through all the trouble of locking it open when you can just remove 8 small bolts and pull the plates out. it's such a simple mod, yet a lot of people are making it seem like a nightmare to do. Everything is reversable, there is no cutting/welding involved. My only concern is low RPM fueling, hopefully someone will dyno it soon. There are no audible signs of detonation, or no hesitations while riding(would just put my mind at ease)
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dubious
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posted June 06, 2006 08:10 AM
yeah, hopefully Brock will have a map for those of us.....
who like leaving the apex leaned over, crossed up, with frt tire in the air, and back tire lit up.
yeah............ one wheel power drifts! 
Might suck on wet pavement though?  .....
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aughtsix
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posted June 06, 2006 08:41 AM
quote:
No fuel at the bottom = no grunt. All you did with the sub plates is add more air. Where is the fuel?
My thoughts exactly.
Only an idiot would pull the plates without knowing what's happening throughout the entire range. But this is THE answer, huh...
What about dbeadling's claim to have found THE answer 'hidden in the ECU'? Y'all were jumping like little dogs for a hot dog, ready to throw money at him if he'd please oh please sell you the secret elixir.
And if mother Kawi IS reading this site (which I still seriously doubt by the way) they'll surely know now who's warranty to void.
But at least this little exercise is enabling me to build a list of who's 14 NOT to buy when they hit the classifieds...
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swiftkart
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Posts: 349
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posted June 06, 2006 09:00 AM
quote:
quote:
No fuel at the bottom = no grunt. All you did with the sub plates is add more air. Where is the fuel?
My thoughts exactly.
Only an idiot would pull the plates without knowing what's happening throughout the entire range. But this is THE answer, huh...
What about dbeadling's claim to have found THE answer 'hidden in the ECU'? Y'all were jumping like little dogs for a hot dog, ready to throw money at him if he'd please oh please sell you the secret elixir.
And if mother Kawi IS reading this site (which I still seriously doubt by the way) they'll surely know now who's warranty to void.
But at least this little exercise is enabling me to build a list of who's 14 NOT to buy when they hit the classifieds...
The bikes are very rich from about 4000 and up and will easly handle the added air flow, but below 4000 is another story because they are very lean down low if you look at any of the dyno charts that have been posted.
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2006 ZX14, Brock CT-Meg, PC, ignition module, E85, 214 lbs suited, 8.96@152.32 1.46 60'
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fish_antlers
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posted June 06, 2006 10:50 AM
Just skimmed this thread.... I'll caution all of you that the secondaries were added to smooth out the FI... butchering the bike seems to me (at least) to be a "knee jerk" response to this issue...
Solving the problem digitally is the key, and I really do caution ALL MEMBERS to take this thread with a ROCK of salt and wait for an electronic "fix". As Cliff Randall pointed out in the previous thread it could be as easy as adding a ton of advance and fuel low down with a PC3R.
my 2$ werth....
dont be hacking the valves apart... they're there for a reason!
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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tslewisz
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posted June 06, 2006 11:05 AM
fish
To what Cliff Randall thread are you referring?
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aughtsix
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posted June 06, 2006 11:10 AM
quote:
The bikes are very rich from about 4000 and up and will easly handle the added air flow, but below 4000 is another story because they are very lean down low if you look at any of the dyno charts that have been posted.
Two points:
1) "... and will easly handle the added air flow".
You know this how?? What tests have you done or tests to which you have access that tell you the engine will easily handle having its fuel/air parameters screwed with so radically without damage?
2) "The bikes are very rich from about 4000 and up"
Well, you've apparently seen charts I haven't. From what I've seen, the engine runs a bit richer as it nears the top, but this is on a dyno. I would think that in the real world where the bike is moving through the air the ram air would tend to offset the richness.
Bottom line -- These bikes are your's, not mine. You're the ones who've paid for them, not me. So I guess I should just zip it shut and watch the show...
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aughtsix
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posted June 06, 2006 11:15 AM
quote:
fish
To what Cliff Randall thread are you referring?
Scott - I think this is the one he's referring to:
"Hi guys.........Does Dynojet make a PC3R for the 14? If so, (the R is for ignition control) throw 7 degrees of ignition advance at the motor on premium fuel of course, and see if that helps the mid range at all. It certainly did on my Muzzy 1270 project.
Cheers,
Cliff Randall"
If not, he'll set me straight.
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serius blk
Zone Head
Posts: 543
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posted June 06, 2006 11:17 AM
I'll wait till someone comes with a sure answer. The bikes havent been out long and people are trying to change things themselves. If we just wait alittle bit im sure Brock and others will have the answers and parts. We had to wait forever to get the bike. Surely you could wait alittle longer for parts. After all we do have the bikes now. I wouldnt want to here of anyone messing the motor up trying a temporary fix.
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fish_antlers
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posted June 06, 2006 11:47 AM
quote:
I'll wait till someone comes with a sure answer. The bikes havent been out long and people are trying to change things themselves. If we just wait alittle bit im sure Brock and others will have the answers and parts. We had to wait forever to get the bike. Surely you could wait alittle longer for parts. After all we do have the bikes now. I wouldnt want to here of anyone messing the motor up trying a temporary fix.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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tslewisz
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Posts: 328
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posted June 06, 2006 11:55 AM
quote:
quote:
fish
To what Cliff Randall thread are you referring?
Scott - I think this is the one he's referring to:
"Hi guys.........Does Dynojet make a PC3R for the 14? If so, (the R is for ignition control) throw 7 degrees of ignition advance at the motor on premium fuel of course, and see if that helps the mid range at all. It certainly did on my Muzzy 1270 project.
Cheers,
Cliff Randall"
If not, he'll set me straight.
Thanks, '06.
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gtracing
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Posts: 159
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posted June 06, 2006 12:00 PM
Idiot right here, thanks.
I merely stated that this worked for me, I rode over 150 miles today with no problems whatsoever. If kawasaki voids my waranty, who cares? I would never take my bike to kawasaki unless there was some major recall.
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted June 06, 2006 12:17 PM
quote:
Idiot right here, thanks.
I merely stated that this worked for me, I rode over 150 miles today with no problems whatsoever. If kawasaki voids my waranty, who cares? I would never take my bike to kawasaki unless there was some major recall.
Thank you for your info and thanks for taking the time to work on this ...I for one will never call you an idiot. I only worry about low RPM fuel curve but i don't think it's going to be off much or it would bog when you wack the throttle.. I feel the second butterflys are a limiter of a type and mostlikey only limit air flow to do limit the power..If you speed that little throttle motor up i think the fuel will not have any problem keeping up......A good dyno will tell ......Till then i wait .....
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Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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tslewisz
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Posts: 328
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posted June 06, 2006 12:22 PM
FWIW, I don't think you're an idiot at all, gtr. People must have forgotten, apparently, that a LOT of early ZX-12R innovation came from the grass roots rather than the industry. And I've definitely heard of this mod being done on other bikes.
Additionally, since we're talking an add-on to a PC3USB (aren't they phasing the others out?) Cliff's suggestion isn't as cost attractive as removing the plates if there are no downsides. In my case, if I decide to do it, I have a very nice offer (free) of a remap available.
Also, gtracing, thanks for "risking" your new bike and sharing the info with us.
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shawnski
Pro
Posts: 1809
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posted June 06, 2006 12:39 PM
quote:
Idiot right here, thanks.
I merely stated that this worked for me, I rode over 150 miles today with no problems whatsoever. If kawasaki voids my waranty, who cares? I would never take my bike to kawasaki unless there was some major recall.
thanks for sharing your info. with us. that is what this forum is all about. not everyone will think the same and want to do the same things but we all learn from each others good or bad experience. i sure learned a lot from this forum. we might get together one day since you live in houston and try to push our beasts to the limit!!!!
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted June 06, 2006 12:46 PM
gtr - Thanks for all of your info, please keep it coming!!
I'm in the "I probably won't touch it" camp, but you never know. As long as you are willing to try things out and tell us what happens, I welcome the information.
I was telling a long-time riding buddy about this mod today and he pointed out that it sounded VERY much like a mod that a lot of the CBR1000RR guys have been doing. The only difference is that their "secondary" is really a big plastic flapper unit sitting inside the airbox. That flapper would slowly open with throttle input, giving more power at high rpm's. Many of the RR guys have already yanked their "flapper" and have been extremely happy with the mod... but I don't think their delta was as much as it sounds like you are getting with the '14.
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 06, 2006 12:46 PM
I did the GT mod today...the bike has instant throttle response but in some higher gears at 5K needs some remapping...
I didn't notice the engine or coolant running any hotter than usual during city or highway riding...
In reponse to Fish's comments:
No question that the secondary butterflies were put in to smooth FI...however I feel it was probably more of a safety issue than anything else. Does mapping need to occur to change the F/A mix? Yes, I'm sure it does. I will probably go back to stock until I get the PC3 an the pipe on a Dyno to re-map, just in case the engine is running to lean on the bottom end. (don't want to put a hole in my pistons).
The bike pulls like a Busa down low now and doesn't really give up till 10K. At 3K, she has more grunt than you could imagine. If you rode a Busa and you ride this bike, they are the same from 3K up now (but with power advantage to the 14)...but the 14 pulls harder above 5.5 than the Busa does. There seems to be a need to map in the 5K range as in the higher gears only; there is some very slight lag which will be addressed through mapping.
My feeling is that all of the mapping can be addressed through a PC3 and IMO, this wil be the most effective way to go once done.
For anyone who is not going to pipe but wants the power unleashed below 5K, a PC3 and removal of the butterfiles would work fine.
GT, thanks for all the pioneering on your ride, it is the biggest part of the answer.
Oh yeah, I noticed in 6th at 80+, she pulls away much harder than prior to removal of the butterflies...now it's really sick power!
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FYYFF!!!
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navigator
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posted June 06, 2006 12:46 PM
I'm not much of a motorcycle mechanic but I relate what I know to autos. With computerized ignition and fuel injection doesn't the brain look at throttle position, load, temperature, O2 content in the exhaust and then inputs the correct amount of fuel and sets the ignition timing to match.
If that's the case how can you add too much air when you still have a primary set of butterflies in the tract. It is my understanding (and I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time) that the seconday butterflies are primarily a liability reducing safety net to keep the attorneys happy. The fuel curve could have been softened electronically.
gtracing, there is nothing wrong with taking a little initiative. It's your bike, so have it your way.
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fish_antlers
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posted June 06, 2006 12:47 PM
I'm certainly not calling you an idiot... it's just that I have first hand experience with the issues people had dealing with early FI and the single valve system...
the second set of valves is there for a reason and it's a godsend to FI on bikes IMHO... anyways...
time will tell with all of this...
as for throttle response I thin you will find that you will now have "on/off" issues when giving the bike very slight throttle inputs .. ie: leaned over in a corner 3rd gear throttle cracked open slightly at mid rpm... second set of valves definetly solved issues with cracking the throttle slightly and feeding small amount of gas (more or less) and metering issues..
report back when you've got some real riding in the twities under your belt with this new setup...
curious to see what it's like.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 06, 2006 12:57 PM
You need now to be more careful with throttle position...like I was on the Busa...but be that as it may...I prefer this to the stock setup. If Navigator is right, I have a perfect solution for this which can be setup by the rider at will...so full stock setup working while in the twisties, and WFO on demand. When someone dyno's the bike, we'll see abot how to proceed...but I feel it's like Kwak designed this bike so that the intake butterflies could be removed at will...but of course they can't admit to that, ever. I was always under the impression that engine mapping was designed to add fuel on the fly according to the environmental conditions at the exhaust and intake...I could be wrong through -- trust me, it wouldn't be the 1st time either...
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FYYFF!!!
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smokinZX14
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posted June 06, 2006 12:57 PM
 Edited By: smokinZX14 on 6 Jun 2006 13:59
Ok if the throttle valves are controlled by a motor we should find a way to speed up that motor without tossing a code ...That way it would be fully adjustable by the rider.. The rider then could set the opening rate to his or her needs....For me i would want them open ASAP for drag racing and just removing the butterflys will do the trick and low cost to boot...
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Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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smokinZX14
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posted June 06, 2006 01:03 PM
quote:
You need now to be more careful with throttle position...like I was on the Busa...but be that as it may...I prefer this to the stock setup. If Navigator is right, I have a perfect solution for this which can be setup by the rider at will...so full stock setup working while in the twisties, and WFO on demand. When someone dyno's the bike, we'll see abot how to proceed...but I feel it's like Kwak designed this bike so that the intake butterflies could be removed at will...but of course they can't admit to that, ever. I was always under the impression that engine mapping was designed to add fuel on the fly according to the environmental conditions at the exhaust and intake...I could be wrong through -- trust me, it wouldn't be the 1st time either...
I agree with you the busa has no real problems with low speed driving or corners the zx14 will be fine without the extra butterflys , but as with the Busa you will need to take extra care not to wack the throttle at the wrong time and place ..
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 06, 2006 01:19 PM
quote:
Ok if the throttle valves are controlled by a motor we should find a way to speed up that motor without tossing a code ...That way it would be fully adjustable by the rider.. The rider then could set the opening rate to his or her needs....For me i would want them open ASAP for drag racing and just removing the butterflys will do the trick and low cost to boot...
It's actually easier than that Smokin; a circuit would bypass the motor control and allow the rider to open the flies to a desired amount or, have the stock setup controlling them. Could be done with a relay and a switch IMO and will work on the fly...now this of course will depend on what they find on a Dyno...if the engine mapping is dynamic and can handle the flies being open without bottom end remapping, no problem to install that circuit. If not, they would have to be removed for good. When we see the Dyno readouts on the A/F mix, we'll know for sure what needs to be done. Changing the factory ECU mapping cannot be done on the fly, so that's not the full answer either to be able to give the rider full control. My only concern is what the A/F mix looks like down low now..if that's ok, we're good to go. The only issue with the circuit is, if the motors are feeding position info back to the ECU, you can't simply bypass them, or they'll code the ECU, but I'm sure we can come up with a workaround if that's the case.
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FYYFF!!!
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dubious
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posted June 06, 2006 01:27 PM
Edited By: dubious on 6 Jun 2006 14:35
Navigator...
its a closed loop system so it will not adjust fuel for lean or rich conditions... no O2 sensor!
Bike also has TPS on the secondaries.
My cell died , so i will have to call Brock tomorrow AM, and see if he is willing to give it a go on the dyno, maybe set us up with the proper mapping for the mod!
Got wife convinced top buy another bike... for her... LOL... I will use for familly passenger rides, and keep passengers off the unleashed beast!
Once the butterflies are removed completely power could be detuned through retarded ignition timing instead, use timing to apply desired ammount of power!
BTW GT, I don't think for a second your an idiot, and I don't think fish was impliing that.
Its great that people try new things and share the experiences... nobody want s to see a damaged machine or rider though...
I think thats why he was throwing caution in the wind
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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