supra5677
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posted June 02, 2006 10:03 AM
Theories for under 5,000rpm problem
The zx14 has a large stroke 61mm, and smaller throttle bodies than a ZX12 r 44mm.. This is a combination for a tire smoking wheelie monster in the low rpm's.. The ecu must be detuned in the IGNITION, INJECTION, and the RAM AIR , Brock Davidson mentioned something on his test runs.. I remember when the Hayabusa got a new ecu a couple of years ago it was good for 5 rwhp. So on the ZX14 I would guess there's probably as much as 10RWHP more in it..
   
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 02, 2006 11:16 AM
 Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 2 Jun 2006 12:18
well over that, from the Busa dyno runs I did on my own bike...there was almost 35LBS RWTQ more at 3.5K...over the stock 14. I'm very sure the 14 has even more than that available. If you have ever WOT'd the bike at 3K when running the warmup map, then you'd know what I mean. Anyone here who has knows what I mean...it will rip your shoulders outta your sockets if you're not paying attention dude...the fucking thing will power wheelie at less than 3K...I've done it a few times now...
Look at this chart...look at the power at 3.5K (which is below the stock curve) this bike has slip on's PC3 and Airbox mod;s and a K&N so it ran below the stock curve till about 4.2K. It never pulled as hard as a cold running 14 in stock trim. I know because I owned 2 Busa's and now a ZX14.
Now that's some serious fucking RWTQ and the 14 has more...
And BTW, this is SAE HP not STD which is much lower...
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scificanada
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posted June 02, 2006 11:37 AM
Edited By: scificanada on 2 Jun 2006 12:38
Question.... Everything I've read about the Vegas bikes is that there was no problem below 5K
Did KHI reprogram the bike to reduce power under 5, if so someone should be able to re-map, or maybe KHI will release the original ECM for "racing purposes".
That said, FBA, know what you mean, pulled out this morning for my 300 Km break in ride (day two), and gave it some throttle (still on cols map) and up she came at 3 1/2 K.... sweeeeet.
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2006 Blue(the fastest colour) ZX14, Brock Ti Gen 3, Secondary Butterflies out, PCIII with Brock Map, Muzzy Frame Sliders.
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supra5677
Pro
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posted June 02, 2006 12:00 PM
Ok I just looked up the part numbers for the ecu, the CN/US part number is 21175-0084
The CA only model is 21175-0089..
Question: Does anybody out side California have this under 5K problem, or is it Nation wide?
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 02, 2006 12:03 PM
Yup..like I said SCIFI, it pulls like a train down low when cold...lifting on stright power only at 3k+ is a no brainer and considering it's bulk and weight, is quite the feat...so I stand by my convictions...
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supra5677
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posted June 02, 2006 12:28 PM
Okay.. Is there a tempature sensor that you could put a resistor on or something to make the ecu think that its still cold..?
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speedgene
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posted June 02, 2006 12:52 PM
quote:
Does anybody out side California have this under 5K problem, or is it Nation wide?
Are you talking about the, "Linear Lag," Supra?
You own one right? Do me a favor... crank the bike over say, 30 MPH... then pin the throttle. Don't roll it on.... pin it.
Let me know if you need more bottom end to help you with that 30 MPH corner?
I feel like Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men" sitting in the witness chair saying, "You want me at that wall, you need me at that wall."
It didn't take long to figure out that riding the 14 for me now says, "I needed that (linear) lag, I want that (linear) lag!"
This is a totally different ride, and nothing pulls away out of a corner like me watching a silver 12r turn tiny in my rear view mirror.
"Lag it, or Leave it."....... If I may use "thevak"-nacular.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 02, 2006 03:22 PM
Speedgene...there are other things besides corners in life (and I love corners)...the bike does well in corners with the crippled low end grunt, however, it's impractical when pulling away in a straight line, or when weaving through traffic for example. Many of us feel that way and it's a pisser when I get on the 10R and in any gear at low rpm, she pulls away like a bat outta hell, all without downshifting 2-3 gears...and then when I try that on the 14 and have to drop a few gears...to do the same thing -- well.... Busa's aren't crippled this way....I ride well enough to control my own throttle without some software engineer's help -- kind of like ABS, I don't want it, don't need it and can stop any bike better without it, under any riding conditions, so I don't buy my bikes with ABS...my point is...let me be the one to decide how to use my throttle, not Kwak..most here would agree....
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speedgene
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posted June 02, 2006 04:41 PM
Edited By: speedgene on 2 Jun 2006 17:43
I agree fba, but I'm working this bike at a higher rpm now. I'm not "tea bagging" it downstairs waiting for a "Busa" kind of performance. I'm looking for 7th gear most of the time. I will repeat, I am the 'everyman" rider, and know what you want. Fuck the Busa throttle. I don't need to gear this bike either. I settled into the bike. I'm in traffic, I'm set in a lower gear, running at higher R's. I'm more concerned about flying very fast reeling in cars/trucks. Cars come up a lot faster with a higher rev band obviously. That is home for me.
Between a steel cable clutch set-up and a little more grunt so I don't need the gear is now minor for me. The bike is so ride-able with zilch at the bottom end, you have to admit that. It's simply a different ride. If the factory gives you any bottom end....it will still be (feel) linear. Get used to the lag... or should I say, compensate for it.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 02, 2006 04:57 PM
Not like we have much choice today and I like you, ride it the same way. In the city, 1st gear only gets so far with the lack of bottom end though. If I'm in 2nd I can go down to 1st but in 1st I sometimes have to slip the clutch to get what I need and I hate doing that.
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ZXLNT
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posted June 02, 2006 07:41 PM
Interesting to note, the bike really comes alive HARD at 3K on the cold map. Next time you start it up cold, try this. After its been running just abit, leave it in neutral and gently bring the revs up to 3K, all of the sudden the rpms will just jump up like you gave it more gas. I can definately feel it do the same thing when riding it.
I took off for work tonight and rolled into it thru gears, never shifting higher than about 3500 or so. DAMN!!! It pulls HARD!!!!! If we can get this figured out its gonna be fun fun fun.....
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dbeadling
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posted June 02, 2006 08:32 PM
took a month to figure out but -I got both throttle bodies to open wide at 3000 rpm. bike is now a monster and keeps trying to rip the rear tire off.detailed report and dyno sheet to follow soon.ecu electronic intervention is a thing of the past on this bike. the kawasaki boys at the factory are good.....kinda like buying a bull without any nuts. I think I can make some money off this thing so I got to be quiet. zx leaves my busa for dead now.....not even close.
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dubious
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posted June 02, 2006 10:58 PM
Bring it on... we will buy it! 
The sooner the better!
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712
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posted June 03, 2006 12:30 AM
dbeadling I to will be waiting in line when you bring the fix to market.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 03, 2006 01:52 AM
Do tell....do tell...
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ZXLNT
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posted June 03, 2006 02:39 AM
quote:
took a month to figure out but -I got both throttle bodies to open wide at 3000 rpm. bike is now a monster and keeps trying to rip the rear tire off.detailed report and dyno sheet to follow soon.ecu electronic intervention is a thing of the past on this bike. the kawasaki boys at the factory are good.....kinda like buying a bull without any nuts. I think I can make some money off this thing so I got to be quiet. zx leaves my busa for dead now.....not even close.
Well lets get the hell on with it.
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dbeadling
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posted June 03, 2006 03:20 AM
learn the ecu and the answer is there .....or go get an electronic wizard with the right tools to figure it out.....I am still testing mine and will continue to do so. the bike has no flat spots to speak of and pulls like a mother off of idle....not for the faint of heart. if I damage my bike I can replace it...if I damage everybodys bike I cound not bear that. all safetys on ecu seem to be working well. temp is within normal limits. this thing is has kept me up late every night and I think I have found the answer only time will tell with a lot of dyno testing...but understand this ...the power is there!!!!!!!!! you only have to fool the ecu.
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EASY
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posted June 03, 2006 03:26 AM
Sign me up !!!! However, to be a good guy, you would just tell us. We would not tell anyone else.
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dubious
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posted June 03, 2006 07:26 AM
PM me, and I'll pay pal, or visa you!
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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jw
Novice Class
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posted June 03, 2006 08:33 PM
Edited By: jw on 3 Jun 2006 21:36
I think this guy is full of shit. First of all, listening to these theories of the power loss below 5K from people that barely know how an engine works is hilarious. No clue what so ever.
Second of all, if the bike runs stronger in warmup mode, it certainly doesn't mean the throttle bodies are opening sooner. If that were the case, the engine would be very lean which is exactly what you don't want on a cold engine.
If you look at Brock's maps, they show the 14 lean below 5K. This was at full throttle. God knows what it's running part throttle. If you open the secondary plates sooner, the lean condition worsens.
Most of the time, ECU's perform a cold engine enrichment. If anything, the tuning should focus on this first, ignition timing second, secondary throttle opening last.
Does the 14 have a exhaust pipe valve? It couldn't be as simple as this, though.
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speedgene
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posted June 03, 2006 08:55 PM
Edited By: speedgene on 3 Jun 2006 21:56
Entertaining isn't it, jw?
My theory on the power loss is when you turn the key off.
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TJ
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posted June 03, 2006 09:07 PM
I fixed the problem with my left foot....on the shifter.
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dbeadling
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posted June 03, 2006 09:44 PM
timing ..yes......different map...yes.....lean...you bet.....better ecu...yup.....different pipe.quote...it couldnt be as simple as this....used to work for yoshimura...r and d stuff. nothing is simple.it just takes time to learn
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Reaper
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posted June 04, 2006 07:12 AM
dbeadling how soon can we expect to wait before you enlighten us to the fix for the under 5k rpm lack of responsivness?
Reaper
2006 ZX-14
2000 ZZR1100
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Katie: 2006 ZX-14.. 186.69HP 110.68ftlb,
Ti-Force Twin High mount Slip-ons, Hyperpro Steering Damper, Sato rearsets, Carbon Fibre Lowers, lower rear wing, Tank Pad, Hugger, Ohlins Road and Track Rear Shock, HID low beam, Sato Rearsets, ASV Levers, Goodridge Carbo-Line Braided front and rear Brake lines, Galfer Braided Clutch line, ZX-10 Front Fender, EK ZZZ Drive chain, Driven rear sprocket, Pipercross Race filter, Powercommander, Secondary Butterflys removed
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fastestbusaaround
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posted June 04, 2006 08:13 AM
This I gotta see....
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