fish_antlers
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The Truth is Out There
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posted May 02, 2006 07:10 AM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 2 May 2006 08:16
ECU, Datalogging and Privacy Issues
We've all considered that fact that the ECU of modern bikes logs data, and the OEMs remain tight lipped about it. Interestingly new Toyotas come with this disclosure in their Owner's Manuals:
Anyone here who has a ZX-14 read their manuals back to front? Is there such a disclosure in the Kawasaki Manual?
If there isn't, is there a clear answer from KMC/KHI as to the datalogging capabilities of the ECU?
I'm going to do some research on this.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted May 02, 2006 07:19 AM
It's an invasion of privacy, since you can't stop a court order for the data...it means that BB is always watching you...there's gotta be somebody out there who can build a program to effectively wipe the data at the user's initiative...my car, my business, no one else's IMO. I should have that option...
Most manufacturers today are using the Canbus prototcols to relay data and commands back and forth in the vehicles computers (including Kwak and BMW on bikes now). We are involved with a few companies that have devices that communicate on the bus to relay such commands like looking doors, alarm bypass, window roll up ./down, determination of air bag deployment, determination of vehice speed, etc...I have to imagine that these protocols are also used to access the DL modules.
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OutsiderzX12r
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posted May 02, 2006 07:34 AM
That sucks. More big brother.....
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Reaper
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posted May 02, 2006 08:01 AM
If Kawasaki are using the data logging for information on how a bike was running at the time it went Boom! That wouldn't be a bad thing, unless of course you had been wringing the bikes neck at 11,500rpm for the last 100km.
It would be nice for a no complaints warranty claim like, "Yes Mr so and so, the data logger has shown that leading up to the event the bike was running with normal specs, we are sorry for the inconvieniance here's a new No 3 rod and some engine casings". Exaggerated I know but it could be handy. Just as long as the law didn't get a hold of it, maybe install a small EMP device on top of it to fry it if you are done for speeding and they want to "Question" your bike =)
Reaper
2000 ZZR1100
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Katie: 2006 ZX-14.. 186.69HP 110.68ftlb,
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fastestbusaaround
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posted May 02, 2006 08:12 AM
EMP...I like it, 'cept that it would kill the bike too...LOL
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fish_antlers
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posted May 02, 2006 12:03 PM
either way it is interesting to see an OEM actually disclose the data logging capabilities of their ECU
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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marco383
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posted May 02, 2006 12:33 PM
Just the first step. The U.K. is considering technology that will actually limit a vehicle's speed from a remote location (like a chopper or police car). That would definitely take the fun out of pursuits.
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frEEk
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ummm... yeah
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posted May 02, 2006 12:56 PM
quote:
If Kawasaki are using the data logging for information on how a bike was running at the time it went Boom! That wouldn't be a bad thing, unless of course you had been wringing the bikes neck at 11,500rpm for the last 100km.
It would be nice for a no complaints warranty claim like, "Yes Mr so and so, the data logger has shown that leading up to the event the bike was running with normal specs, we are sorry for the inconvieniance here's a new No 3 rod and some engine casings".
exactly. i'm not sure if people overlook the benefits of such data logging, or if they just don't mention it when worrying abotu teh Big Brother element.
personally, i'm not sure i fully understand the concern about Big Brother. if all our vehicles gots bits installed that guaranteed we'de be caught every time we did something illegal, there would be such an outcry (like from 90% of the people) that the laws would have to be changed to be more accomodating. fact of the matter is that laws ar imperfect in their rigid nature, and simply could not be absolutely enforced even if it was possible.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted May 02, 2006 01:05 PM
Not so sure about that...it's called evolution...BB is here and it's getting worse...take the online music sharing websites and the RIAA prosecution as an example...they get your IP and prosecute the shit outta you!
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zermatt
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posted May 02, 2006 03:32 PM
I say break out the toolkit (or have a buddy do it) and take the ECU with you before a wrecker hauls your bike away and the insurance company gets their hands on it.
I don't have a problem with Kawi looking at what I'm doing with the bike - these bikes were designed to be USED HARD, but when the police or insurance company wants to know what happened, that's where I draw the line. That bike is private property and they have no business knowing what happened unless they suspect that a crime had been committed.
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fastestbusaaround
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posted May 02, 2006 03:36 PM
+1
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CrotchRocket
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posted May 02, 2006 04:10 PM
This is a sensitive subject...The manufacturer, Insurance companies want this so they can put the responsibility on the operator of the vehicle!!!...Try to stop them from recording data???...I doubt it...I'll bet you guys anything that if you were to disable the recording device then the vehicle will most likely not be able to be driven!!!
They will get what they want in this situation...Lets say you get into an accident and remove the " BlackBox " for your very own safe keeping, I wonder what will happen then???...You will get a subpena to produce that " BlackBox " or you will be left holding the Bag!!!...I guarrantee you will read that very scenario in the future!!!
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Drowland
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posted May 02, 2006 04:25 PM
Oh shit fellas don't get me started.. FTP
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CrotchRocket
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posted May 02, 2006 04:32 PM
The Police have nothing to do with this...
This is something the Manufacturers and Insurance Companies fought for!!!
It's similar as a " BlackBox " installed into every airplane...But for the benefit of the 2 groups listed above!!!
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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havabusa12r
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posted May 02, 2006 05:16 PM
Yes, they can use the data in courts, warranty and diagnostics. If you were riding around on a bike that was overheating, speeding through a red light, high RPM and 0 MPH, etc.
As someone told me long ago, after a failure, maybe you can plug your ECU into your buddy's bike and have him ride his bike around the block. Then reinstall it?
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(68 Yam 175 2-stroke)
(99 Copper Busa) (99 Duc 900 SS full fairing) (00 MV Agusta F4S) (02 Aprilia RSV Mille) (02 ZX 12r CTB) (03 KTM 950 Adv)
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Ozzy
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posted May 02, 2006 05:18 PM
pull the fuses for the srs and vsc if you dont want big brother invading your life.
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aughtsix
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posted May 02, 2006 09:04 PM
Edited By: aughtsix on 2 May 2006 22:07
The EDR only records a snapshot of a VERY limited duration - something along the lines of 60 seconds - just prior to what it is programmed to see as an 'event'. Then, if I recall correctly, if not requested from the ECU within a set amount of time, it dumps the information. Again, if I recall correctly, some EDRs dump the information on the very next power-up.
Additionally, not all EDRs record the information in the same format. Some formats are more easily read than others - some are almost useless unless you have the 'decode' program.
Lastly, the EDR uses the internal ECU clock as a timebase, so the events recorded don't necessarily even correspond to real time.
Don't get all wrapped around the axle - it ain't the library of congress...
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TJ
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posted May 02, 2006 09:47 PM
quote:
Yes, they can use the data in courts, warranty and diagnostics. If you were riding around on a bike that was overheating, speeding through a red light, high RPM and 0 MPH, etc.
As someone told me long ago, after a failure, maybe you can plug your ECU into your buddy's bike and have him ride his bike around the block. Then reinstall it?
That would be one advanced ECU if it could tell you were speeding and/or ran a red light 
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
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posted May 02, 2006 11:42 PM
quote:
...the police or insurance company wants to know what happened, that's where I draw the line. That bike is private property and they have no business knowing what happened unless they suspect that a crime had been committed.
dude, they ALWAYS suspect a crime has been committed.
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BobC
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posted May 03, 2006 12:06 AM
I agree, it could be seen as an invasion of privacy. There are circumstances when it could help, such as in a no-fault accident but overall it's a bit suspect.
I believe that Triumph motorcycles already have a certain amount of data in memory, not exactly sure which parameters but certainly maximum speed and RPM can be accessed. A Triumph mechanic mentioned this to me when I was road testing a very new Daytona 675 in March.
As far as the scare stories about big brother here in the UK are concerned, we'll hopefully have a change of government before the spy in the sky scenario happens. Either that or I'm emigrating.
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scificanada
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posted May 03, 2006 02:29 PM
FYI, the first thing being done by Accident reconstructionists thse days is to pull the computers and they can figure out your Delta-V dynamics, accel, braking, speed etc...
Days of saying "I was doing the speed limit, and a Dog ran out in front of me" only washes when not a serious slide, anything big and the techo gurus have you cold 
I suggest you do your own research and speak to your local Accident Coppers, you will be shocked.
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2006 Blue(the fastest colour) ZX14, Brock Ti Gen 3, Secondary Butterflies out, PCIII with Brock Map, Muzzy Frame Sliders.
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scificanada
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posted May 03, 2006 02:30 PM
And some may see it as an invasion of privacy, but all the prosecution needs is a Search Warrant to get the data
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Be a predator, not prey.
2006 Blue(the fastest colour) ZX14, Brock Ti Gen 3, Secondary Butterflies out, PCIII with Brock Map, Muzzy Frame Sliders.
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blitzkrieg
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posted May 03, 2006 02:54 PM
Don't underestimate the issue at hand.
Lawsuits have been won, insurance claims denied and people put in prison over what the EDR says.
I did a LOT of research on them after I found out my '04 F150 was equipped with one (unannounced to me at purchase).
On that particular vehicle it was easy to disable but the "easy" fix also disabled the airbags. Coincidence? Not bloody likely.
Don't be naive about where this is heading.
If it keeps going on the current path you could be denied medical treatment, life insurance, sent to jail and other bad things based upon what the Black Box says. 
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havabusa12r
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posted May 04, 2006 12:17 AM
quote:
quote:
Yes, they can use the data in courts, warranty and diagnostics. If you were riding around on a bike that was overheating, speeding through a red light, high RPM and 0 MPH, etc.
As someone told me long ago, after a failure, maybe you can plug your ECU into your buddy's bike and have him ride his bike around the block. Then reinstall it?
That would be one advanced ECU if it could tell you were speeding and/or ran a red light
That was an actual case (car), they just start adding up all the info. You SAY that you were doing the speed limit through a red light and someone crashed into you. Come to find out you were WFO trying to beat the light.
Plus, all of the red light cameras, etc.
BTW- My Aprilia Mille has a data logger, it is not very much data in the real sense, but it can store enough before a catastrophic engine failure to tell what happened. I am sure that our tipover switches are probably triggers.
Most new FI vehicles probably have this whether we know it or not.
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(68 Yam 175 2-stroke)
(99 Copper Busa) (99 Duc 900 SS full fairing) (00 MV Agusta F4S) (02 Aprilia RSV Mille) (02 ZX 12r CTB) (03 KTM 950 Adv)
(04 Yam R1) (05 LE Busa) (07 ZX 14)
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