Pilgrim
Novice Class
Posts: 83
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posted May 01, 2006 05:34 AM
quote:
Matt, TB is 100% right; you'll never beat a liter bike in a roll-on unless....you're well into your poweband to start with. Yesterday, I was on my wifes R1 and I walked the 14 easliy, only because we were in the same gear, but when I raced the 14 again, this time when it was in the right gear, I lost...and the R1 is no slouch (not a 10R, but still) . I walked a Busa and a K1200S yesterday on the R1, only because I was in the right gear and they weren't. I don't think that gear for gear matched, my 14 could even run a Busa -- remember that a 14 won't be happy until it's at least at 7K+ for a roll on race...roll-on races are not an indication of anything important. When you want to see what a bike will do, you need to put it on the track, period. That's the only thing that counts and the only way to tell what's what. There have been enough races on the 14 to prove it's now the top bike in drag racing. The litre bikes make great power at 5K and have a long way to go till redline. Power to weight is a huge factor. Pilgrim is wrong about the ZX14 though, no stock R1 will beat it in a drag race, given that you have equally matched and skilled riders on both. His attestation to the facts may have been correct, but his statement as to the "way it is"...is totally unfounded and was desgined to elicit exactly the types of responses he got from this crowd. If he didn't understand that, then he's a bigger idiot than I originally thought, because coming in here and making unfounded, biased statements like that will surely get one into a pissing contests, and THAT"S THE WAY IT REALLY IS!
You are still wrong, I said what I saw, you are saying I left out something, I did not see the last time and Im sure nobody else did either because the classification was for no time to be posted, why would that be and who cares if you have nothing to hide then show the time? Some of you guys are missing the point, I never came on and bashed it, I stated some FACT that one R1 beat one 14 at an 1/8 mile track side by side not earlier or not later.
Any body including you two know the engine in the 14 has a good design head and has plenty of beef and will sure probably be the king, but I'm telling you, if your on a bone stock 14, watch out for some of the others. And IM still waiting fastbusaaround and smokin 14, wheres your money?
  
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted May 01, 2006 05:36 AM
 Edited By: fastestbusaaround on 1 May 2006 06:36
In my pocket -- where it will stay...
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FYYFF!!!
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Pilgrim
Novice Class
Posts: 83
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posted May 01, 2006 05:39 AM
quote:
Yeah - I quickly realized that modern liter bikes with a few mods and light riders are not good roll-on comparison candidates 
Oh, and I would have tried the 120+ or 140+ roll-on, but anytime I got above 120 everyone was WAAAAAYYYYY behind me. Sorry Pilgrim  
It was a really great day anyway. Great bunch of guys and gals, perfect weather, good food... fun was had by all!!! And I made about 10 new friends
Hey Matt,
You know I'm game for any kinda race. Lets try it again next week or today I'm not busy, but I will say it's not fair to run my heep against yours. I noticed you didn't say anything about running the R1 or the Busa though, how did that go.
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Reaper
Expert Class
Posts: 112
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posted May 01, 2006 05:43 AM
Edited By: Reaper on 1 May 2006 06:44
quote:
Was out riding today with some friendly guys on various different bikes. One was an '05 (K5?) GSXR-1000 that I'd guess was lighter than stock because of it's carbon-fiber wheels and a few items deleted (very clean bike!). It also had a pipe and PC, and I'd guess the rider was probably somewhere around 70-90lbs lighter than me.
So in horsepower/ kilograms ratios he was probably pretty close to 1:1. I'd like to see it done when: a) you are more used to the bike and b) the other bike is standard. Granted he would most likely beat you still but it would be by a much closer margin. Having more weights a bitch but being a big guy myself I find I can keep the front wheel planted better than the more broomstick orientated bloke.
quote:
We did a few roll-ons from about 60mph in 2nd, 3rd, and 6th gear. In both 2nd and 3rd it wasn't even close to being a contest - the GSXR walked me hard! In 6th it was close for a couple thousand rpm's, but once the gixxer hit it's power band, he moved away.
This flat spot in the RPM range that the ZX-14 apparently has may account for some of this, I wonder what would happen if the standard pipes are kept but a better breathing air filter and power-commander added, I'm betting it would fix it creating a more linear power and torque curve and again help the bike keep up with the competition or better yet beat the snot out of them.
quote:
I know, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison *at all*, but I just thought I'd share my experience. No, I wasn't happy with the results, but I'm man enough to understand that a lighter bike with a lighter rider combined with HP that probably challenges my stock '14 will completely spank me .
I bet you made his day though. Just as long as you didn't make up some lame excuses as to why you lost. I had a Hayabusa rider do that to me down at the drags the other week when I took my ZZR-1100 down for a few runs so I could learn how to drag race (as I've never done it at the strip before). I only beat him by 0.005 seconds but I still won  ... Damn the excuses I got, oh my tyre pressures are too high, the front's not strapped, I only bought it two weeks ago, blah blah blah.
I was waiting for a post like this to come up. I'm suprised it hasn't sooner, Kawasaki should have given away a free jacket with every bike with a bloody big target printed on it with the caption underneath saying "Wanna race!!". Take care on the roads guys. I'd hate to read, "Was doing a roll on with a (insert random bike name here) when a truck pulled out from a side street and killed me." a) you will be dead and typing from the grave and b) you will most likely put insurance premiums up more 
Reaper 
2000 ZZR1100
2006 ZX-14 comming soon to a garage near you (well me)
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Katie: 2006 ZX-14.. 186.69HP 110.68ftlb,
Ti-Force Twin High mount Slip-ons, Hyperpro Steering Damper, Sato rearsets, Carbon Fibre Lowers, lower rear wing, Tank Pad, Hugger, Ohlins Road and Track Rear Shock, HID low beam, Sato Rearsets, ASV Levers, Goodridge Carbo-Line Braided front and rear Brake lines, Galfer Braided Clutch line, ZX-10 Front Fender, EK ZZZ Drive chain, Driven rear sprocket, Pipercross Race filter, Powercommander, Secondary Butterflys removed
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Fastmaster
Novice Class
Posts: 34
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posted May 01, 2006 06:40 AM
I'll bet even if the 14 is in the right gear to make power in a roll on it will lose to a new 10r 0r Gixer.
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Pilgrim
Novice Class
Posts: 83
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posted May 01, 2006 07:38 AM
quote:
I'll bet even if the 14 is in the right gear to make power in a roll on it will lose to a new 10r 0r Gixer.
Always remember to throw in the pure stock part, I have no doubt when the goodies are available these things are going to be bad, so hey, let's hurry up and pick on them know. These guys that were wanting to race me didn't even have any idea what I have. You will never see me say I will race anyone that's not pure stock, I would look almost as stupid as them if I said that. In other words, if you have a 14 dressed like my GSXR, I ain't saying shit about shit.
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D
Needs a job
Posts: 3365
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posted May 01, 2006 07:42 AM
That's a good report there Matt, I'm sure there are lotsa people here interested in yer findings.
Took me back to when the Busas came out in 99 and I had my 98 9R - Busas's didn't worry me too much as I knew the power/weight thing was far in my favor.
Pretty much the same battle here, I'm not convinced that the 14 is enough of an upgrade from my 10 to actually get one although my passenger would appreciate the additional space and comfort.
I wouldn't worry too much about losin to the G1K - you gave away easily 100 pounds on the bike and another 80 on the rider, that's a HUGE advantage to overcome.
Stock for stock the G is around 3 pounds per hp and yer bout 3.2 pounds per hp - lighten up and tune the G and it's around 2.5 pounds per hp, add in rider weight differences and the only way yer gonna win that battle is rider error.
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted May 01, 2006 07:58 AM
Edited By: worm~hole on 1 May 2006 09:07
quote:
And if Im not mistaken.. those old FZR1000s with the 20 valve head are still very fast rollon bike from 50mph...
....yes, I remember that my '89 FZR1000 was pretty stout....anyways....roll-ons?....a win is just a lower gear away and there's no way to make these types of 'races' fair if all else is unequal....some nice was stories, though...
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“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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EASY
Expert Class
Posts: 183
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posted May 01, 2006 08:06 AM
Stock for stock the terminal speed of the 10r is almoxt identical to the 14, however the 14 wins becdause it is way eaiser to launch. Hate to say it guys, but it looks like on any kind of street race the 10r is going to win. Dragstrip is a whole nuther matter, but not many of us run on the strip. Also, as someone said, the 14 rider is going to be targeted for every squid out there. I mean it is a win, win situation for them no matter what happends.
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supra5677
Pro
Posts: 1279
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posted May 01, 2006 08:13 AM
lets see 164 horsepower 375 dry zx10r
lest see 170 horsepower 474 dry zx14
thats a 100 pounds dry weight.. and the 10r is in a higher state of tune, higher compression, and it revs to a higher piston speed. ( in general 7 pounds equals 1 horsepower) The zx14 would need 17 more horsepower to match the power to weight ratio of the zx10r. This would put the 14 at about 184 RWHP then its all rider..
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted May 01, 2006 08:53 AM
this and the "you gotta be kidding me " post.
THE reason kawi should have built it with another 20 rwhp.
20 rwhp more and its engineered ability to launch would have been da shit.
So everyone else would be the target!
oh well.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted May 01, 2006 08:53 AM
quote:
That's a good report there Matt, I'm sure there are lotsa people here interested in yer findings.
Took me back to when the Busas came out in 99 and I had my 98 9R - Busas's didn't worry me too much as I knew the power/weight thing was far in my favor.
Pretty much the same battle here, I'm not convinced that the 14 is enough of an upgrade from my 10 to actually get one although my passenger would appreciate the additional space and comfort.
I wouldn't worry too much about losin to the G1K - you gave away easily 100 pounds on the bike and another 80 on the rider, that's a HUGE advantage to overcome.
Stock for stock the G is around 3 pounds per hp and yer bout 3.2 pounds per hp - lighten up and tune the G and it's around 2.5 pounds per hp, add in rider weight differences and the only way yer gonna win that battle is rider error.
Power would be about the last reason I would go from a 1000 to a 14. Brakes, ride, comfort (rider and passenger), suspension...would be the 1st reasons! When I want to go fast in the corners, the 14, well that's not my 1st choice...the 14 is more of a sport touring and distance bike designed for exactly that (and drag racing of course). It's a great "all-arounder" giving you the better points of both worlds.
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FYYFF!!!
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EASY
Expert Class
Posts: 183
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posted May 01, 2006 09:12 AM
Sigh-----There's about a zillion Gixxir 1000's out there that are going to hear they may be able to beat "the most powerfull production Bike ever Built" and are going to go on hunts. The argument between a Busa and a Gixxer 1000 will continue for ever. I was hopeing that the 14 was going to be the undisputed king of accelaration contests and the speculation between the Busa, Gixxer 1000, ZX-14 would be a mute point. And crips, the 2006 10r is in a class by itself !!!! I rode one and it scared the crap out of me.
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted May 01, 2006 09:22 AM
The 14 is the King of acceration, but it was destined to prove it on a track, not on roll on's. If guys like RG are pulling in the 8's with a stock motor, what does that indicate to you? Though my 10R or R1 will roll on better than the 14 gear for gear, I doubt they will hit the low 9's stock...so how come it can roll on better than the 14 or the Busa?
This has been going on since 2004 when all the Busa dudes didn't want to admit that they couldn't roll-on on a litre bike and win...now we have the same old story but on a new bike...Busa would usually beat 'em on the track, but not in the streets from roll on's It's a race from a standing start to the finish and the one that will finish 1st will be the Busa and 14's (not in that order) and include the fact that you have to have the same caliber of rider on all these bikes. Roll ons are BS...I don't think anyone here has regrets about buying their 14's.
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FYYFF!!!
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EASY
Expert Class
Posts: 183
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posted May 01, 2006 09:31 AM
Well actually there are several 06 10r's that are running low nines and about the same terminal speeds. Sure they are lowered and piped and I am sure the guy has to have cutouts in the seat for his balls, but the new 10r is a beast. Please do not misunderstand me---I am in no way knocking the 14, it is just that I am a little dissapointed in the overall street accleration----not racing. You have all good points----depends on what you want. I am picking up my 14 end of week, and am just having a few tiny doubts.
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted May 01, 2006 09:38 AM
Edited By: dubious on 1 May 2006 10:42
if your not intending to travel 186 mph, drop 1 tooth on front and go up 2 in th rear.
It will make a dramatic difference in roll ons, drivability and accelleration, but the fuel mileage may hurt a little, and it might make the bike feel buzzy at higher speeds.
Actually with speedo calibrator and bonnyville box, it will turn 186 mph still but at 11,000 rpm instead of 9500 rpm (approx rpms - i did the calc but can't find exact #'s.)
I'm sure by then most competitors will have bowed over in respect!
don't forget these litter bikes are geared for about 186- 190 mph at redline in top gear.
The 14 is geared for about 202 MPH at redline, gearing that it will never accomplish without a bonnyville box, and a pipe.
Quite likely the only thing it gains from this tall gearing is relaxed buzz on highway, and fuel mileage.
.
____________
natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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EASY
Expert Class
Posts: 183
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posted May 01, 2006 09:47 AM
Good point Dub---you think the "yellow box" will still be able to correct the speedo??? It seems like the 14 has a very high tech. system.
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swiftkart
Expert Class
Posts: 349
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posted May 01, 2006 09:51 AM
quote:
Good point Dub---you think the "yellow box" will still be able to correct the speedo??? It seems like the 14 has a very high tech. system.
I agree and who's to say the other bikes didn't have 1 tooth off the front to help them even more, gearing does have a lot to do with roll on's, as does weight, etc...
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2006 ZX14, Brock CT-Meg, PC, ignition module, E85, 214 lbs suited, 8.96@152.32 1.46 60'
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted May 01, 2006 09:58 AM
EASY, you won't be dissapointed, you wont much care abut the low speed roll on's. By the way, from what I can see about low end TQ/HP issue (or lack thereof) it's absolutely software related. Here's why I know...yesterday, I put the key in and started her, no warm up, just rode on down the road ...cold...Ya I know....bad bad....and was sputterig a bit but when she hit 3K, I just goosed her hard and she almost brought the front wheel up...it was scary indeed and certainly not what I was used to. I imagine that the engine mapping program has some bugs and that it's not perfect...no shit, it pulled way harder than my Busa ever did at 3K...it was neat, but I couldn't do it again. I like the fact that I can turn on city streest in 1st and not have to clutch for fear of breaking out the back end...Busa's are famous for that. That's not say you can't do it, but it's much more linear and is more well behaved in the streets
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted May 01, 2006 10:06 AM
FBA I pm ya.
Too bad it could not be controlled via switch.
They musta retarded the ignition timing in lower gears to tame the beast.
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted May 01, 2006 10:10 AM
Edited By: zerMATT on 1 May 2006 11:13
quote:
I noticed you didn't say anything about running the R1 or the Busa though, how did that go.
I never did get to try the R1, so I can't comment on that, but I did get one top gear roll-on with the 'busa and it was very close. We were even at first, then after a bit he started to move away. It wasn't all that dramatic, but it was definitely a little quicker in top gear. Just to keep perspective, that bike also has a PC and pipe, and who knows what else done to it. I tried to do some lower gear stuff with him, but he couldn't make sense of my hand signals before we ran out of room.
quote:
You know I'm game for any kinda race. Lets try it again next week or today I'm not busy, but I will say it's not fair to run my heep against yours.
I think I'll forgo the roll-ons for now, that point has been proven. How about you and me, on our own bikes, on a timed run through some twisties?
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted May 01, 2006 10:26 AM
Hmmm... in the twisties, litre bikes take all (rider dependant of course). Be damn careful, those tires relly suck man...it will bite you in the ass if you push her in the corners unless you at least change the tires...
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FYYFF!!!
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Pilgrim
Novice Class
Posts: 83
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posted May 01, 2006 10:30 AM
quote:
quote:
I noticed you didn't say anything about running the R1 or the Busa though, how did that go.
I never did get to try the R1, so I can't comment on that, but I did get one top gear roll-on with the 'busa and it was very close. We were even at first, then after a bit he started to move away. It wasn't all that dramatic, but it was definitely a little quicker in top gear. Just to keep perspective, that bike also has a PC and pipe, and who knows what else done to it. I tried to do some lower gear stuff with him, but he couldn't make sense of my hand signals before we ran out of room.
quote:
You know I'm game for any kinda race. Lets try it again next week or today I'm not busy, but I will say it's not fair to run my heep against yours.
I think I'll forgo the roll-ons for now, that point has been proven. How about you and me, on our own bikes, on a timed run through some twisties?
Oh yea on the twisties. I hope you can put something together on the Okla to Ark. ride. I was informed I would be taking the Hardley though. Does any else with ya'll take the cruisers??
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted May 01, 2006 10:32 AM
Edited By: zerMATT on 1 May 2006 12:07
quote:
Hmmm... in the twisties, litre bikes take all (rider dependant of course). Be damn careful, those tires relly suck man...it will bite you in the ass if you push her in the corners unless you at least change the tires...
Rider and preferred riding style is the key there. I love corners, but it's not Pilgrim's thing - just not what he normally does when going out for a ride I guess. I, on the other hand, don't really have that much fun unless I'm gettin' off the seat with a knee out on a regular basis...
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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ZX11D
Zone Head
Internet Police
Posts: 674
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posted May 01, 2006 10:32 AM
Edited By: ZX11D on 1 May 2006 13:06
quote:
EASY, you won't be dissapointed, you wont much care abut the low speed roll on's. By the way, from what I can see about low end TQ/HP issue (or lack thereof) it's absolutely software related. Here's why I know...yesterday, I put the key in and started her, no warm up, just rode on down the road ...cold...Ya I know....bad bad....and was sputterig a bit but when she hit 3K, I just goosed her hard and she almost brought the front wheel up...it was scary indeed and certainly not what I was used to. I imagine that the engine mapping program has some bugs and that it's not perfect...no shit, it pulled way harder than my Busa ever did at 3K...it was neat, but I couldn't do it again. I like the fact that I can turn on city streest in 1st and not have to clutch for fear of breaking out the back end...Busa's are famous for that. That's not say you can't do it, but it's much more linear and is more well behaved in the streets
FBA, this makes even more sense. Your experience with the unusual acceleration was with cold engine, which behaves differently than when fully warmed-up. There must be different mapping for the fuel injection mixture and the opening of the secondary fly-by wire butterfly, which allowed the engine to produce the power surge, which is otherwise absent when in normal, warm operating condition.
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