Y2KZX12R
Needs a job
CompetitionCNC.com
Posts: 3762
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posted April 23, 2006 07:24 AM
 Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 23 Apr 2006 08:31
I love these debates. 
There are hot tight spots in all new engines. These hot tight spots vary in location even in 5 different brand new zx14 engines. Unless you disassemble the engine you have no idea where they are. This is a mass produced engine that may need more time to wear in these hot tight spots. With a well built, hand built engine these spots are mimimized.
But on a production motor where tolerances are wider than a hand built race motor, sustained high rpm and load will make these tight hot spots get very hot because the engine oil cant carry away the heat fast enough from those spots. So galling and excessive wear can occure in those places. So its not really an RPM issue, nor a throttle % issue.
Rev the engine higher and higher and more and more throttle during the first few hundred miles but dont let the engine stay up there at the high rpm nor at full throttle on the dyno for long times. This gives the tight/hot spot time to cool to its surroundings.
depending on where and how tight the hot spots are is how long you need to wear in "break in" the engine. So how do you know without taking the engine apart and "blue printing" the engine? You dont.
The factory procedures are conservitive for a reason. They have to warranty the engine. And if you happen to have an engine with alot of very tight spots then you need more running time to wear them in. An engine that is all 100% right on the money with no hot spots (i doubt there are any) then an hour of run time riding is all the engine really needs before it can sustain high output for an extended amount of time.
As Dirty Harry would say.....
So, you have to ask yourself, do i feal lucky? well? do ya?
   
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted April 23, 2006 07:28 AM
...right on, Y2KZX12R, right on....
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted April 23, 2006 07:43 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 23 Apr 2006 08:44
smokin.... the bikes we rode were broken in by KMC before the intro.
And, as you and I both know, there remains a huge difference between a "racer" who has his engine torn down frequently and "joe average" consumer who rides the bike as a daily commuter.
You need to realize that both of those people frequent this site, and what break in procedure might be right for someone who races, could be dead wrong for a person who plans on street riding and touring with his bike and hopes to get 60K + miles out of it. That person might never see the inside of his engine and probably never wants to.
They are apples and oranges and it's not fair to risk misinforming the general riding public.
Engines can be broken in in varying ways. Will they all net the same result? Perhaps not.
Is the bike meant to be a "flash in the pan" good for some racing for a season, then sold in the local paper, or something that is kept in your garage, ridden on the street and meant to give you years and years of performance?
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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bishopzx12
Zone Head
Posts: 517
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posted April 23, 2006 07:52 AM
Now i have a question with breakin with a performance exhaust. I definitely believe in heat cycling the engine but what about having a performance exhaust on right from day one. Is that any beter or worse for the break-in procedure. all bike that i have own were new and i had them for at least 6 months to a year before i put a pipe on them. I now have my pipe but no bike and am wondering how long should i wait to put here on during the break in cycle
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1996 ZX7R
1999 ZX9R
1999 ZX11
2000 ZX12R 1270
2002 GSXR 1000 "I was Drunk"
2003 ZX12R 1375
2006 ZX14
2012 ZX14R
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted April 23, 2006 07:56 AM
...I say any exhaust on the street except shorty straight pipes will be fine...
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted April 23, 2006 08:01 AM
(wow... this was a good cast  )
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted April 23, 2006 08:03 AM
I'm still waiting for Dino to chime in and let us know how "well" not following break in procedures altered the performance of his ZX-10R vs the one he broke in "properly" 
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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bishopzx12
Zone Head
Posts: 517
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posted April 23, 2006 08:05 AM
So i can put my muzzy on straight out the crate and will not have any issues. I have the muzzy titanium system
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1996 ZX7R
1999 ZX9R
1999 ZX11
2000 ZX12R 1270
2002 GSXR 1000 "I was Drunk"
2003 ZX12R 1375
2006 ZX14
2012 ZX14R
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aughtsix
Expert Class
Posts: 277
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posted April 23, 2006 08:22 AM
"follow the instructions provided to you by the manufacturer... they are there for a reason.
If you somehow think you "know" more than the engineers who designed and built this product, then you must be a truly remarkable person."
Best line so far I think...
Unless you're willing to disassemble your brand new engine to inspect and blueprint it, you're only guessing as to what's 'in there'. Then again, it is YOUR brand new engine. As the song goes, "It's your thing - do whatcha wanna do..."
But in the back of my mind is the idea that, as bikes become more and more technologically advanced, manufacturers are going to start insisting that dealers looking at the ECU history when a warranty claim comes in - especially a warranty claim concerning a drivetrain item. Word to the wise...
And lastly, if Kawasaki is indeed reading this forum (which I still highly doubt by the way), those of you who just proclaimed to the world that you're going to beat your new bike into submission come hell or high water irrespective the wear-in requirements of the manufacturer have possibly just shot yourselves in the foot.
Hobble on.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
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posted April 23, 2006 08:45 AM
quote:
if Kawasaki is indeed reading this forum (which I still highly doubt by the way)
yer kidding, right?
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
Posts: 10623
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posted April 23, 2006 09:08 AM
quote:
I'm still waiting for Dino to chime in and let us know how "well" not following break in procedures altered the performance of his ZX-10R vs the one he broke in "properly"
...whaachoo talknin' about, Willis?
____________
“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted April 23, 2006 09:09 AM
ask Dino
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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GUNNER
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted April 23, 2006 10:22 AM
quote:
I'm still waiting for Dino to chime in and let us know how "well" not following break in procedures altered the performance of his ZX-10R vs the one he broke in "properly"
You really believe that do ya?? Please don't make me piss from over laughter Perhaps Dino had a bike with the cam timing slightly off, or one with the advancer slightly retarded. or one with the cases machined off a little where the advancer bolts to the case. There could be 50 or more reasons Dino's 10 didn't perform up to snuff besides the one you think is it. My 10R has had a foot in it's ass from day one. Although I maintainance my shit more than most. My bike had the head off by the time it had 400 miles on it and the cylinders looked perfect. The cams weren't gauled anywhere either. Who really cares if the thing blows up anyway? All that does is give me a reason to build a bigger motor and make it faster. That's why I have more than one sportbike. One dies the other gets pressed into action. NOTHING that hauls ass lives forever! It's the price of the game we play. Either be willing to pay the price to run up front or find something cheaper because there's always someone willing to turn up the wick further that you are. Only you can decide when you have had enough. FAST= short life span SLOW= longer life span .. I didn't make these rules up I just live by them.
Like Jim said above................................DO YOU FEEL LUCKY????? WELL DO YA????
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted April 23, 2006 11:20 AM
quote:
smokin.... the bikes we rode were broken in by KMC before the intro.
And, as you and I both know, there remains a huge difference between a "racer" who has his engine torn down frequently and "joe average" consumer who rides the bike as a daily commuter.
You need to realize that both of those people frequent this site, and what break in procedure might be right for someone who races, could be dead wrong for a person who plans on street riding and touring with his bike and hopes to get 60K + miles out of it. That person might never see the inside of his engine and probably never wants to.
They are apples and oranges and it's not fair to risk misinforming the general riding public.
Engines can be broken in in varying ways. Will they all net the same result? Perhaps not.
Is the bike meant to be a "flash in the pan" good for some racing for a season, then sold in the local paper, or something that is kept in your garage, ridden on the street and meant to give you years and years of performance?
Ok i'll give you that KMC rode the bikes before you got them. I'm sure they where test mules....But unless you or I where there we have no idea if they where broken in hard or soft or somewhere inbetween...
I plan on running my engine hard, drag racing and top speed runs .. I do very little riding on the street , maybe 2500 to 3000 miles a year so my speedo will never see 60,000 miles... I will not own this bike more that 5 years, more likey 2 or 3 years....So for me if the engine lasts 30,000 Vs 60,000 i could careless....
Fish i don't feel that i'm misinforming anyone, most owners will do as they please and not what they read......Most motorcycles will be wrecked, trashed or traded in long before 60,000 miles , so if you break in hard or easy or somewwhere inbetween it will make little or no difference to most people ..In all the years of riding motorcycles i have yet to see any new owner follow the factory break in to the letter....I'm sure there are some that have done just that but i have not seen him yet...
I think a motorcycle owner that will see 60,000 miles will never see redline( or rarely see red line) and will follow the factory break in very closely and thats fine with me ..I don't see people buying a zx14 to go putting around, why buy a zx14 when you really need a Goldwing.. Break it in how you like because it's not going to make much difference one way or the other ...Just don't over heat it and keep good clean oil in it...
One other item ... Dodge Vipers are broken in a the factory..Their are strapped to a rear wheel dyno and run all 6 gears flat out........I saw this myself at the Viper plant , it was a tour that is offered for new owners......Oh just one more note the Viper engine comes with Mobil one oil from day one ....
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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fish_antlers
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posted April 23, 2006 11:30 AM
you make my point for me... you rarely ride the street.. you;re going to race your bike... if you have probs you'll rip it apart yourself and on top of that you'll get rid of it withing a few seasons and get another..
hardly the picture of someone trying to achieve longevity and performance from a powerplant.
once again, suggesting that people break it in "how they like" is a blanket statement and carries little weight when the engineers who have created the machine tell you specifically how to break it in.
I'll listen to the guys in the lab coats.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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GUNNER
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted April 23, 2006 12:45 PM
quote:
I'll listen to the guys in the lab coats.
Fish you may find this funny or you may not, BUT I use to work in my shop in a Lab coat!!!! I swear I did So if you didn't know me from Adam would you listen just because I own a Lab coat? Wait! I'm putting on my lab coat as we speak  FISH run that motor HARD!!!
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted April 23, 2006 02:14 PM
Fish...do you think the Vegas bikes were "ringers"
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FYYFF!!!
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havabusa12r
Expert Class
Posts: 425
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posted April 23, 2006 02:30 PM
Is there a big disagreement between the professional engine tuners and builders?
Of course.
Is this just the internet?
Of course.
Bottom line, it's your damn bike, do whatever the hell you want with it.
____________
(68 Yam 175 2-stroke)
(99 Copper Busa) (99 Duc 900 SS full fairing) (00 MV Agusta F4S) (02 Aprilia RSV Mille) (02 ZX 12r CTB) (03 KTM 950 Adv)
(04 Yam R1) (05 LE Busa) (07 ZX 14)
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havabusa12r
Expert Class
Posts: 425
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posted April 23, 2006 02:54 PM
quote:
Im breaking mine in rite now ............. at 200 miles : )
Any more pics of the install, or completed mods?
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(68 Yam 175 2-stroke)
(99 Copper Busa) (99 Duc 900 SS full fairing) (00 MV Agusta F4S) (02 Aprilia RSV Mille) (02 ZX 12r CTB) (03 KTM 950 Adv)
(04 Yam R1) (05 LE Busa) (07 ZX 14)
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blitzkrieg
Needs a job
Road kill = Free lunch.
Posts: 2044
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posted April 23, 2006 03:59 PM
We have a serious breach of ettiquette here.
Smokinzx14 introduced the "O" word (oil) in a "B" thread (break-in).
So just to really throw all the coals in the fire I'm gonna say that Dunlops suck, Motoman's a genetic mishap AND ram-air gets most of its benefit from cooler air, not the ram effect.
Let the shit hit the fan.
____________
"BTW....You need to get a girlfriend who's last name isn't .jpg"
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted April 23, 2006 04:15 PM
Edited By: speedgene on 23 Apr 2006 17:43
I hope you're not thinking that I'm saying to redline the bike in every gear, do you? Redline in any gear is close to 90, or over a 100 mph. I'm not saying to break in the engine that way, if that's what you think?
It's more like you are throttling the engine as if you were hearing a jet engine wind up. It's a slow transition (up to redline) with lots of road up ahead. Not lighting up the back wheel and shifting as soon as you hit red line, then the next gear to redline, and so on. I'm talking more of using one or two gears for this...That's it. Plus this happens no more than say 3 miles in total, and spread out when safe to do. The rest is one 30 mi. canyon loop using the same accel/decel (@ per 3 mi.) only riding slower, figuring out a plush setting, more brake burnishing, and having fun scaring the begeezus out of myself during the rest of the break in.
This is a street bike. There are patrols watching. I don't have the luxury to rent a closed course, or wait for some track day. This can be done (for me that is) 3 in the morning with few vehicles on the road.
Now, did that sound like I'm beating hell out of an engine?
Fish, you will be doing (some, not most of) your members/viewers a disservice if they have to lock into your way of doing things. I will never steer someone in the wrong direction. This is a very safe, conservative approach as to how I will break-in the 14. If I were crazy enough to prep it for the track, then I'd light it off that day, and never look back. This has been my "lab coat approach" with ill effects.
Bishop, throw the pipe on. The engine doesn't care, and has no effect on the physical internals during engine break-in if that's your concern? If anything, you'll know more about the pipe's drivability problem... and I kind of doubt (the pipe) will be a concern as well.
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E-tard
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GUNNER
Needs a life
Posts: 5778
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posted April 23, 2006 04:39 PM
quote:
We have a serious breach of ettiquette here.
Smokinzx14 introduced the "O" word (oil) in a "B" thread (break-in).
So just to really throw all the coals in the fire I'm gonna say that Dunlops suck, Motoman's a genetic mishap AND ram-air gets most of its benefit from cooler air, not the ram effect.
Let the shit hit the fan.
I wouldn't touch any of that with a 10 foot pole
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smokinZX14
Needs a life
Posts: 10197
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posted April 23, 2006 05:16 PM
quote:
quote:
We have a serious breach of ettiquette here.
Smokinzx14 introduced the "O" word (oil) in a "B" thread (break-in).
So just to really throw all the coals in the fire I'm gonna say that Dunlops suck, Motoman's a genetic mishap AND ram-air gets most of its benefit from cooler air, not the ram effect.
Let the shit hit the fan.
I wouldn't touch any of that with a 10 foot pole
Very wise man.......
____________
Smokin Performance Cycles..
Tampa Bay , FL .. Brocks Performance Dealer ..
Gen 2 ZX14R Best ET 8.43 , Best MPH 164.95
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aughtsix
Expert Class
Posts: 277
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posted April 23, 2006 05:27 PM
quote:
quote:
if Kawasaki is indeed reading this forum (which I still highly doubt by the way)
yer kidding, right?
No.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted April 23, 2006 05:52 PM
speedgene... "my" way of doing things?
SIr.. all I am suggesting is that members FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS. The are conveniently provided for you when you purchase the bike.
If you think that is a "disservice", then I am completely and utterly confused.
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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