blueford
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posted March 10, 2006 06:17 AM
We ought to have a poll on who has grabbed too much front brake in a panic situation and those who haven't yet!
I bet the numbers will coincide with the ABS poll on both sides.
  
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fish_antlers
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posted March 10, 2006 07:50 AM
freek...
I take it from your uninformed, juvenile response that you have had very little experience driving an ABS equipped vehicle. I know what your current car is. Does it have ABS? I know for a fact your previous vehicles did not. Spare the few times you may have borrowed a vehichle with ABS, you have little to no daily ABS driving experience. I have driven with ABS for years (in cars). I can assure you that I can only recall 1 time that the ABS saved me, BUT I can also clearly recall dozens (if not more) that it almost killed me, bringing me to the point where I was about to crash, and I would have faired much better with no ABS at all. Anyone who has any ABS experience can relate 100% to my statement.
It has nothing to do with machismo statements like yours "oh.. you're better than Rossi" bullshit and everything to do with how ABS interprets daily challenges such as rough/ rippled road surfaces and varying traction conditions, turning on when you DON'T need it... often at the very worst possible time.
If your new car has ABS and it hasn't caused you to shovel into the back end of a bus up there in the ski resort, don't worry.. it will ... and when it does (maybe not now.. maybe in a few months.. or even a year from now) you'll be back to this thread with your tail between your legs apologizing.
The reason I included the "switch it off" option was that the only time I actually liked ABS was when I could ditch it. Bare in mind for everyday driving I left it engaged... it's very useful for a drone down the highway, or in light rainsoaked streets, but after living with it I quickly learned its shortcomings and knew when I'd do better turning it off.
You want ABS on a bike? How 'bout a CVT and an 8 track to go along with it?
-dude.. you're ready for a Goldwing, not a sportbike  
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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worm~hole
Needs a life
Miles to go before I sleep....
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posted March 10, 2006 11:48 AM
....don't woory about fish's mangina ranting, frEEK....my guess is that once he gets a long ride on a full-boat GW, he'll change his mind and wonder why the hell he took all of those long-ass trips without one....if fish was honest with himself, he'd be ridding a GW....his 14 time would be the same as it was on the ZX-14 so its a no-brainer....hell if I had the cash, I'd already have a GW in my garage next to my Rune, Gear-Up, ZX-14, ZX-12R, KLR650, VULCAN2000, HD Heritage Softtail Classic, and BOSSHOSS 502...
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stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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Tool Man
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posted March 10, 2006 04:07 PM
Your right Fish it does have shortcomings. My F250 has ABS and I agree there should be a switch on/off. It scared the &%$k out of me a couple time when just lock'n them up would have been better. (mostly off-road) It also saved me once or twice when i was being stupid and not paying attention! For now NO ABS on my bikes. Question? Can i get one of those on/off switchs installed on the wife aftermaket?
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The banks are failing..
The banks are failing...
Invest in Ammo
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jimzx9r
Expert Class
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posted March 10, 2006 04:33 PM
quote:
freek...
I take it from your uninformed, juvenile response that you have had very little experience driving an ABS equipped vehicle. I know what your current car is. Does it have ABS? I know for a fact your previous vehicles did not. Spare the few times you may have borrowed a vehichle with ABS, you have little to no daily ABS driving experience. I have driven with ABS for years (in cars). I can assure you that I can only recall 1 time that the ABS saved me, BUT I can also clearly recall dozens (if not more) that it almost killed me, bringing me to the point where I was about to crash, and I would have faired much better with no ABS at all. Anyone who has any ABS experience can relate 100% to my statement.
I'm with ya 100%. All my cars have been from GM, they all have ABS. The only good thing about the ABS on my current car is that I have it programmed out and disabled. Any bump in the road while you're braking with ABS in normal conditions...and the ABS gets set off. On dry pavement, stopping distance is always shorter without ABS and on the verge of locking up, as opposed to ABS pumping away. There have been times when my ABS went off for no reason when I had to stop...and it feels like the car is just rolling and rolling and won't stop, even though I was only going 20 mph and could have stopped in 2 seconds if it didn't go off. The only time ABS ever saved me was in a foot of snow. I'm pretty sure nobody here has any plans to ride a zx14 in the snow. If you ever pay attention to car articles, the testers always get the shortest stopping distances with ABS disabled. And traction control? Bah...I can't even get my car to move forward in the rain if it's on.
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swft
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posted March 10, 2006 04:58 PM
It all depends on how smart the system is. The stability control on my Z06 if fewkin incredible. My most graphic test of it's abiliies was to go out on an autocross course in the wet...Try it with it on, then off. Guess which experiment resulted in looping that bitch around like a drunken sailor?
Honda's VSA is awesome too. I've had four wheel drifts going before, utterly in control.
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jimzx9r
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posted March 10, 2006 05:46 PM
The ZO6 ABS system came from years of development on the C5R racecars. I wouldn't expect Kawi's ABS to be on the same level at this point. It would be great if it is, but I'm not counting on it.
Hijack time...do you have the C5 or C6? My dad has a C5 zO6 and my older bro has the regular C5. The C6 zO6s are nuts, there is one that has gone as fast as 11.2 on a drag radial with a 100% stock motor.
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fish_antlers
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posted March 10, 2006 06:01 PM
i think he was talking about the Z06 traction control.. not the ABS... that's how I read it..
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jimzx9r
Expert Class
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posted March 10, 2006 07:39 PM
Well it all works together as a system on that car...but you can turn the stability off, but not the ABS unless it's programmed out or you get creative with the electronics.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
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posted March 10, 2006 08:14 PM
juvenile & uninformed? u better check urself there ego boy.
first of all, i acknowledged that on clean, dry pavement you are likely better with ABS off. i have no doubt about that especially given i've also seen the tests that show better dry braking with ABS disabled. as to non-clean dry pavement (like gravel) I dont' believe that the car/bike comparison works so well. in a car you can skid thru gravel/offroad and stop pretty well, on a bike chances are u'll be on your side long before you'de come to a stop. this car/biek comparison problem goes for ANY situation as far as i'm concerned, as a car can safely lock up the wheels whereas a bike cannot do so for more than a half second or so (let's not argue exact numbers here, .5s is just my estimate).
again, i see the use of ABS more for gravel or rain, etc. as to rippled pavement, i have had abs activate on uneven surfaces too when it didn't have to, BUT it has never caused me to come to a slow stop, and in most cases it seems liek it activated but never really _actuated_. on my car at least (yes, it DOES have abs and i've used it on a few occasions) it seems to activate (makes noise) as soon as it _thinks_ it may be needed, but half the time doesnt seem to DO anything, as u can feel thru the pedal when it is working and it makes even more noise. not sure if that's the same in your truck. beyond that, i don't doubt that some ABS systems are superior to others. if the 14 had a crap system that falsed all the time then obviously i wouldnt want it, but i woudl hope and expect they'd put a good system on it. seems the systems tested in the link above worked quite well.
one final point, all the talk about being able to stop faster without ABS is only going to apply to a subset of drivers (i suspect a minority) and even then liekly only when someone is concentrating on it. the tests by magazines and others obviously dont' incorporate the element of "i'm listening to the radio, thinking of something else, looking at the view out my window, and NOT 100% prepared to panic brake". i have a hard time believing anyone who claims they are TRULY FULLY ready to do a perfect stop at any given time. all these conditions are helped by ABS. so yeah, maybe there is some % of times where ABS would lead to WORSE brake performance, but do you honestly believe those situations outweigh the ones where it would help?
as to the "ABS saved me/ABS made the situation worse" statements, those things require a LOT of qualification IMHO. that stands right up there with all the people that say "this helmet saved my life, i'm a (insert brand) guy for life": total bullshit (sorry if u'r one of the people who has said that). you do NOT know if that is the case unless you repeated the "test" with different variables (different helmet, BAS on/off). the result may have been exactly the same or opposite of what u thought. granted there are cases where it is unquestionably obvious because u have been in a VERY similar situation and this result was WAY different, but i just don't trust those kinds of "natural occurence tests" as far as i can throw them.
ok, done ranting & rambling (sorry).
and you didn't read all of my post, i said
quote:
"ABS only if I cant switch it off!"
don't you mean "can"?
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
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posted March 10, 2006 08:45 PM
addendum:
i do not object to your "no abs for me" statement fish, as i beleive the benefits of ABS may well be wasted on you, as to the best of my knowledge you almost exclusively ride in dry weather on good pavement, and i have no reason to beleive you are not very adept at braking (primarily knowing how hard u can brake in a given situation). what i object to is your apparent dismissal of ABS in general as an effective safety feature.
btw, here's your dram ya fuckin' fisher
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swft
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posted March 10, 2006 08:58 PM
Actually fish, both the ABS and the traction control work in conjunction. The stability control system will indepently brake each wheel to correct a 'yaw transition'. The ABS is really good, and the traction control works great in bad weather, but if the track is dry, you want to switch to 'competitive mode', which disables it. Nothing more fun than hanging it out a little bit to help turn the car through the corner. 
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swft
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posted March 10, 2006 09:02 PM
JimZX9R - I have the '03 Z06R. All of 12K miles on it, so da bitch don't come out in bad weather. The way I figure it, why drive a great car in bad weather.
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fish_antlers
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posted March 10, 2006 10:31 PM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 10 Mar 2006 22:37
freek... let me take you for a drive.. I cant very easily make the ABS fail and cause a near miss...
and 'splain me why ABS aint on da race bikes while yer at it...
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
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posted March 10, 2006 11:17 PM
again:
quote:
"ABS only if I cant switch it off!"
don't you mean "can"?
as to your question above, are we talking about trackdays/racing or street riding? i can assure you i'm talking about the latter.
and again with the same aparent typo: "I cant very easily make the ABS fail" i assume you mean you CAN make it fail?
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jimzx9r
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posted March 11, 2006 02:07 AM
Edited By: jimzx9r on 11 Mar 2006 02:10
I don't immediately dismiss ABS, I just feel that it's not for me and what I'll be doing with the bike. My 14 will be ridden a 1/4 mile at a time, and never in the rain unless I get stuck somewhere in a downpour. If the ZZR's ABS is a good system, I'm sure it will be great for some people...I'm just not so trusting as to think Kawi will have the ABS perfect for the first year.
I also know that the most advanced ABS/traction control/stability systems work amazingly well, otherwise the fastest racers and riders wouldn't be accused of cheating and using them. Mladin and the traction control sticker by his right grip comes to mind. When race classes do allow ABS and traction control, everyone with half a brain uses them...and that says enough right there. But, these systems are not what you would typically find in any average car you could buy.
For qualifications...well I don't want to go there and sound like our buddy Greg.
Edit: Swft, if you ever need to find a forum for the zo6, check out LS1tech.com. A friend of mine owns it, they have more tech info than you can shake a stick at.
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worm~hole
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posted March 11, 2006 03:21 AM
...all your ABS are belong to us...
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“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men
stand ready in the night to visit violence on those
who would do us harm.”
-George Orwell
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swft
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posted March 11, 2006 07:02 AM
Thanks Jim,
I had asperations of doing all kinds of stuff to the Z06, but then I came to the realization that anything I did was going to make it worth less money. Sad but true. So besides a K&N, it's stock. Still a lot of fun!
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tuusinii
Pro
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posted March 11, 2006 07:14 AM
I've had had ABS on cars for 5 Years (50% I've owned a car) and driven them even more. I live in Finland where there is ice/snow 6 months a year. I can't remember even one time where the ABS hasn't worked in favor of me. I can remember couple times when I just might have stopped earlier without ABS, but that would have meant that I would have gone straight to the another car. The best thing about ABS is that You can still steer the car and brake at 100% at the same time. And in almost every test I've seen the ABS also works better wheather it be dry or wet. And the best thing is You cans steer and brake efficiently even when there are different things under different tires - for example half on dry pavement and halv on ice. When the ABS systems came they weren't that sophisticated than todays systems and so their stopping distances were marginally worse than without but they still allowed good braking and steering. Thats why bikes haven't had ABS systems untill very reasently. Car can have the tires locked for a while and nothing bad happens but with bike that isin't so and the ABS systems are just beginning to come to bikes even they have been in cars over 20 years! You shouldn't look for test made in the 90' - things have get a lot better - expecially on bikes. The biggest mistake - especially on cars where You have only one pedal for 4 tires is that people don't know how to brake - when the ABS system on car starts to make noice You should just push harder because know only one of four tires is at its limit and the other 3 can still brake harder. Nowadays cars are luckily starting to have these emergency brake assistants that notice when You make an emergency braking and give full pressure even if You don't push the pedal that hard.
Bike are much more delicate but the resent test that have been done have clearly showed that the todays ABS systems are better than humans - You can have Your own opinions but the data dosen'l lie. And usually on all those test where they have tested the same bike with and without ABS the riders have thought that they stop faster without ABS but the measurements have showed that they were wrong and stopped faster with the ABS system on. So what You feel isin't always what's happening.
And about racing - every racer that can ( the rules allow) the use of ABS or ESP use them because they know they work better than the humans - and do it lap after a lap...
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fish_antlers
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posted March 11, 2006 07:49 AM
poll should read "can turn it off" .. looks like freek had some fun with it ... put it back you bastad!!
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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VPN
Zone Head
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posted March 11, 2006 09:27 AM
We are the ABorgS!
You will be aFishilated!
The resistance with antlers is futile!
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swft
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posted March 11, 2006 07:17 PM
Fish, you been owned. Everyone that has a strong opinion about ABS on this bike is in favor of it, with the exception of you.
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VPN
Zone Head
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posted March 12, 2006 02:13 AM
We have to start a new forum: zx14.abs
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ZX11D
Zone Head
Internet Police
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posted March 13, 2006 05:28 PM
Edited By: ZX11D on 13 Mar 2006 17:32
One of the first one to vote, just did not have time to rationalize my stand. My vote was "ABS Please", all the way. In my opinion, ABS belongs in the same category, with many other technological advancements available to auto-motive industry today, most of which we can not imagine to live without. Let's face it, it has been proven to work and there is evidence of its benefit to safety of the riders and others. Systems available today work better and are cheaper than ones initial introduced in early nineties. It is just matter of time for majority of large displacement motorcycles to be offered with this technology.
Follow this link to Continental Automotive Systems website to learn more about the benefits of ABS in motorcycling.
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/cas/cas/themes/press_services/press_archive/press_archive_2004/pr_2004_09_14_abs_intermot_2004/pr_2004_09_14_abs_intermot_2004_en.html
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swft
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posted March 13, 2006 05:32 PM
Thanks Man!
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