trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted March 01, 2006 01:12 AM
And hard.
  
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted March 01, 2006 02:13 AM
quote:
I'm sorry Kawasaki but I am officially calling bullshit.
This graph shows the ZX-14 as having 11.4% more peak torque than the Hayabusa.
Horsepower is subject to improvements of that magnitute but peak torque per liter, being remotely comparable engines, is not.
The ZX-14 has a displacement of 1352 cc, the Hayabusa 1299 cc.
So it has a 4% displacement advantage and therefore, with equal volumetric, thermodynamic, and mechanical efficiency, should have a 4% torque advantage. Four percent would be totally believable, representing being equally good but bigger.
Six or seven percent would be a very nice achievement.
Eight or nine percent, WOW.
Over eleven percent? Getting more than seven percent more torque per liter than the Hayabusa?
I'm sorry but I do not consider that credible. Peak torque per liter is something that edges up, not leaps up like that.
Yeah, it's starting to become clear why that graph doesn't give actual numbers on its scales.
Dude have you been drinking? or what is wrong with you... by what you are saying, how did a stock 12 have 1-2% more horsepower with 100cc's less then???
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200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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MadMike
Moderator
FEAR THE BLACK FLAG!!!!!!!!
Posts: 6579
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posted March 01, 2006 02:28 AM
quote:
No, the chart is a manifest fraud. It already attempts to explain itself by having scales on it. The curves do not have the necessary mathematical relationship to those scales, or to any linear scale, therefore it cannot be a true chart.
Sorry ,some untruths give themself away. This is one of them.
dude you seriously have issues....
"We" posted this chart so everyone can see. this chart was not even in our packet.... both of them are just a reference point.
Why dont you email Brock Davidson and ask him about the difference in these 2 bikes....
he basically said on a "Bone Stock" busa I would be running 10.7's
and on the 14 I ran a 10.31 is my best pass....
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200-MPH CLUB MEMBER!
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Drowland
Zone Head
Posts: 733
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posted March 01, 2006 02:41 AM
We see who the asshole is... How about us get back to the good stuff. And put that crap under another topic say " Dabate of ............."quote:
quote:
frEEk, maybe the difference is I am a scientist, with a number of published papers, I make my living from it, I have a graduate education in science, and therefore I know what graphs purport to represent. I appreciate someone without such a background might not have the confidence or assurance in what things mean.
i see, how we're getting to belittling eh? but u'r right, i never saw or authored a single graph in getting a bachelor' sin engineering.
quote:
When scales appear on a graph this means that the values are in proportion to the scales. If they are not, then the graph is deceptive and false.
They are NOT in that graph. Its values are not in proportion to the scales, so it is deceptive and false. There is no explanation, short of "Btw these scales on the side are totally bogus and deceptive, and the apparent relative difference between these curves is deceptive" that can go along with that graph to make it right.
you do not know exactly what the scales represent, so how the can you claim that? obviously they are not standard measurements we are all familiar with, which leads me to believe it was generated by the R&D department using some odd scale only they use. chances are this was explained when it was presented. i repeat: the problem here is it has NOT been explained YET. this gives you every right to say it doesnt look right and question what it means, but no facts to back up your claim of intentional misleading.
quote:
A graph comparing things falsely and deceptively -- and to one's advantage -- is fraudulent. I understand your not thinking that a nice word but that's what is.
denotatively yes, it would be that simple. but connotatively that statement is as fraudulent as the subject.
quote:
What this thing is, is jimmied up to make the relative differences between the ZX-14 and Busa appear bigger than they are. And not only are the scales of the axes arbitrary, as was already obvious, but they're untrue -- the zero is not zero, or there is some other manipulation causing the necessary relationship between the values to not exist.
quite possible if not definite, but taken in context (which fish has unfortunately left out) it may very well not be fraudulent or even misleading.
look, i'm glad that you look out for things like this cause we are inundated with marketing BS including deceptive claims (bordering on downright lies a la the R6 tach), and i believe most people just swallow it whole, so it's good to have someone vocal seek out and poitn out such problems, but you're crying wolf where you should be crying "there may be wolves here". IF this turns out to be a intentionally deceptive graph (even if it was only displayed to the press and not public) i would be a miffed as anyone as i have a particular hate for such marketing techniques (hell, i hate virtually ALL marketing techniques), but we do not KNOW that there is anything there to be pissed about.
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entropy
Moderator
Posts: 8671
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posted March 01, 2006 03:49 AM
 Edited By: entropy on 1 Mar 2006 03:56
quote:
Fuck you Entropy.
NOBODY makes you read what I post.
NOBODY.
Go fuck yourself. And I do mean that.
Bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Trenace,
your nit-picking, college-educated, sleep-deprived, addle-headed, conspiracy-theory posts on this thread remind me of all those dumbfuks talking on their cell phones at 110dB in congested public places; No, we don't have to listen, its just annoying putting up with lame-brained folks with no manners.
I am very surprised you don't submit your "contributions" to this thread in all Caps.
over and out
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This moderator uses moderation in moderation
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2002 zx12
Novice Class
2002 zx12
Posts: 67
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posted March 01, 2006 05:09 AM
Wow that all made alot of sense
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21895
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posted March 01, 2006 05:20 AM
hey... you guys wanna tear each other apart? do it in the smackhouse..
late for a plane.
-later
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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Ozzy
Needs a job
need guberment cheese
Posts: 3172
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posted March 01, 2006 05:43 AM
Another thread hijacked by MR. I am always right.
Fish, when you do get time to post your trip details, please make it an editorial type article and LOCK the fucking thing so we can just click and read without the distraction of the penis wars.
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zerMATT
Pro
Posts: 1931
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posted March 01, 2006 06:22 AM
Edited By: zerMATT on 1 Mar 2006 06:23
quote:
Fish, when you do get time to post your trip details, please make it an editorial type article and LOCK the fucking thing so we can just click and read without the distraction of the penis wars.
2nd that - PULEASE start a fresh thread with your "long" write-up and lock it. That way everyone can start their own threads to point out the positives/negatives on each's own merit.
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'06 Passion Red ZX-14 | Black D&D Slip-ons | Speedo Healer | V1 | zumo 550 | Heli-Risers | PhantomX
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lietoome
Needs a job
Posts: 2033
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posted March 01, 2006 06:46 AM
can't argue with this....
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ZREXER
Expert Class
Posts: 492
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posted March 01, 2006 06:53 AM
quote:
Woo-Hoo!!!
I travel for a couple days, come back to see that the 14 is in the hands of Oliver, Mike and others!! 
But when i open the thread it is chockablock full of conspiracy theory; WTF???
I wanna hear Mike & Oliver's comments, Q&A's, etc, and not have to wade thu Trenace's BS.
Trenace: SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!!!!
Take your lame microscopic pixel-torque drivel to some other thread.
(ps: did you hear that the Pentagon was never hit by a plane on 911????)
+1,000,000!!
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otto65
Novice Class
Posts: 95
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posted March 01, 2006 06:55 AM
Geez it seems like 2000 all over again. Witch one will go 200mph the ZX12 or the Busa?
One must admit the graph is weak. Give it a week or two and some real dyno sheets will start showing up and everyone will have something to compare. But I'm sure if someone doesnt like the outcome the conspiracy crap will start all over. Remember the ZX10 "factory ringers"?
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Its all part of my master plan to rule these worlds
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ZREXER
Expert Class
Posts: 492
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posted March 01, 2006 07:07 AM
Edited By: ZREXER on 1 Mar 2006 07:07
quote:
can't argue with this....
I don't know the pixels look kind of suspicious to me...............................HaHa!!
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OutsiderzX12r
Zone Head
Street Racer
Posts: 841
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posted March 01, 2006 08:59 AM
quote:
can't argue with this....
How does a Bugly rank that high in the "Sexy" category?
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OutsiderZX12R
2000 ZX12R-A1
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VPN
Zone Head
Posts: 718
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posted March 01, 2006 10:30 AM
quote:
can't argue with this....
In the left side of the picture you see the numbers bended down
or if you look it the other way the lines go up in 30 degree angle
That is cheating!
Also in top of each bar there is added a darker shade
to make them look higher (both Busa & ZX14 bars)
AND since ZX14 is missing that "-" this must be a fake!
Don't that this comes from the lieing KHI markedroids!!!
It is most likely a photoediting effort and is a completely arbitrary overlay
Fraud!!
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2002 zx12
Novice Class
2002 zx12
Posts: 67
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posted March 01, 2006 12:48 PM
Move on to new subject this getting very old. There is a new bike out all you went to do is cry about some F??King Graph?
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted March 01, 2006 01:54 PM
Edited By: trenace on 1 Mar 2006 14:55
quote:
+1,000,000!!
Hey you two assholes -- you two know who I mean -- you ought to be bitching about the further page added since your posts, that's not what you want to read, nothing in it was the info you wanted, and you're special, so these folks shouldn't have posted it and of course it's your place to be announcing that and directing who should post and where. Maybe everyone will elect you ZX-14 Zone mods next year and that way your special selves can delete everything that's not what you want to read, though others are choosing to participate in that same conversation, but they're not as special as you of course.
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FP 10R
Expert Class
Fast Learner
Posts: 212
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posted March 01, 2006 03:28 PM
Trenace,
I have never met you but I now know what you look like............your the dude in Numbers the TV show so thats how you know all this maths n stuff.
Can't see the reason to get all wound up over a graph thats right wrong or other wise it will all come out in the end when the bikes are released and really tested against each other.
If the ZX14 is a pumped up version of a 12R and having ridden all the 12R versions and quite a few Hyabusa's the two bikes are worlds apart, the only real thing they have in common is a simular engine displacement.
Maybe the new 14 is a touring version of a 12R ? I will let you know when I have a ride later this month still awaiting delivery till then got a couple of 06 10R's to give a flogging before we pull the engines for race setup next week.
My advice is go for a long ride and get it out of your system this ain't no life and death situation either way.
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"Life is not a rehearsal so make the most of it" Carefully
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted March 01, 2006 03:38 PM
Edited By: trenace on 1 Mar 2006 15:49
Your mistake is to imagine I am "wound up."
Apparently others certainly were but I was not. It did appear false to me, and -- just as with other things I have found false -- I criticized it strongly for being false when I believed, mistakenly, that it was. That is not being wound up, that is simply having a standard that deceptions shouldn't pass uncalled. There are sometimes deceptions, this fortunately does not appear to be one on further analysis. It's unfortunate that I made a calculation error not once but twice in a row. Also unfortunately, in this format, if one sits on a potential post for a week every time, so as to make sure, with time, that it has no errors, very little posting would get done. So the best that can be done is to acknowledge the error as rapidly as it is discovered, rather than to never have any, sometimes there will be one unfortunately.
However, if you're referring to my objection to people telling me not to post because it bores them, and engaging in personal attacks in the process simply because stuff was posted that, boo-hoo, they didn't want to read though others did and were participating in the discussion, yeah, I do consider that to be asshole behavior. Most people do, when someone starts telling you to shut up when you're not even talking to them and they have every ability to tune out and it's none of their business. It's pretty much universally considered asshole behavior to do that, namely because it is. I'm not "wound up" over it but the fuck-you's to the personal attack and the me-too-followup were quite genuine and IMO called for. Entirely different issue, and already dealt with sufficiently.
It's also unfortunate that frEEk deleted or lost the following posts I wrote on this subject that have the correct analysis -- or at least I do not see them in this thread. At least one person found the measurements of the percent differences between the Busa and ZX-14, as correctly measured, to be interesting, but he got rid of them (it seems) in the process of trying to satisfy the whiners.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted March 01, 2006 03:48 PM
trenace, i moved all the posts i found that were related to this discussion. anythign i didnt move is still in teh old thread. if u find something i missed pelase point it out to me and i'll mvoe it here too.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted March 01, 2006 03:52 PM
I'm sorry frEEk, you are right. Those posts are indeed back on page 1 of this thread. So in fact they are still there, my mistake.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted March 01, 2006 03:58 PM
Edited By: trenace on 1 Mar 2006 16:06
Anyway, to get back on track -- Mad Mike objected to one of the earliest posts which should be superseded by the later posts -- the graphs show the ZX-14 to have 8.3% more peak power than the tested Hayabusa. The peak torque is 11.4% higher which is a really astonishing figure, but VPN pointed out that there is a quite strong "bump" effect at a narrow rpm -- if comparing "off-bump" to "off-bump" the improvement is 8.9% which is still really excellent considering the displacement increase is only 4%.
An "overall" increase (that is to say exclusive of a narrow bump) in the torque plateau area of 11.4% indeed I would have thought too much to be right and still do think that. However, looking at the general highest plateau area not the very highest bumps in them is more indicative, as degree of sharpness of resonances is more variable, and that increase, just under 9%, is in the range that I'd before stated to be credible and still do think so.
However, the downside of the chart is that it goes only to approximately 9500 rpm, which is really peculiar as dynographs ordinarily go to redline or the limiter or very near to it. The impression one gets from that chart of power building all the way to the redline is not the case -- there's about another 1000 rpm to go that is not shown on that chart.
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Tool Man
Needs a job
Posts: 4493
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posted March 01, 2006 06:57 PM
trenace: you seem disturbed put down your calculator. Life is to short, ride more
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The banks are failing...
Invest in Ammo
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tuusinii
Pro
Posts: 1031
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posted March 01, 2006 11:13 PM
When thinking about the torque I find it quite realistic that ZX14 has more of it. Even more than the 4% displacement increase. Because the engines make the same torque down low even if 14 is bigger, but on the higher range the 14 makes more. So the 14 is tuned for more mid- to top end. So You have bigger torque increase than displacement increase. And about rideability. Busa and also ZX12 has almost all the torque You can use in the lower part of the RPM range so You don't need much more. And when riding you hardly ride below 3000RPM, because that usually equals about 80 kph (50MPH) in the 6th gear and usually Your going faster or have a lower gear... And for the transmissions sake You even really shouldn't use lower revs in the higher gears...
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VPN
Zone Head
Posts: 718
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posted March 02, 2006 04:27 AM
photoshopped perspective from non-pro Veli-Pekka
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