k bryant
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posted March 12, 2007 05:28 PM
 Edited By: k bryant on 12 Mar 2007 18:31
quote:
kb... I'd agree, however I don't .. there's a difference between crashing (rider error) and mechanical failure...
Ok look. This is simply the difference of opinion between a spectator and a professional racer. A pro racer just simply knows that all the excuses in the world won't change the fact that he lost a race or championship because he broke, crashed, had shit tires, gearing was off, all the stars weren't aligned, etc... From a professional racer's point of view, there is no difference between crashing and a mechanical failure. None. If's a DNF. Spectators speculate. Racers live in reality. And reality sucks sometimes. It ain't over till the checkered flag falls. And when it does fall, all the bullshit stops and whoever won, won.
Many people know my relationship with Honda' racing department. It's very tight. I am absolutely heartbroken for those guys. They've been working 20 hour days leading up to Daytona. And they've surely spent more money and man hours than the other teams. Bryce, who's pictured above draining the remaining gas from Miguel's bike is absolutely devasted, as are the rest of the guys. I guarentee that if you ask Miguel, Jake or Josh their opinion, they would not even remotely imply that they would have won if the failures didn't happen. They would say "things were looking good." But none would have said they could/would have beaten Steve. Not until the checkered flag fell.
   
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fish_antlers
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posted March 12, 2007 06:49 PM
quote:
How is it "mechanical failure" if you run out of gas? Obviously the "rider" needed to come in a lap earlier. When your wife runs out of gas and you have to get your ass off the couch to bring her gas, do you blame the car? If Hondas don't get the same fuel milage as the other brands than maybe their not so deserving
Dude... apparently you can't read... you need to READ the news story (above.. beginning of the thread) about the race and what happened. They did NOT "run out of gas"
Sorry KB.. I don't buy it. Make your analogy work for the Bubba/Reed scenario.... I'm listening...
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philmy3rdleg
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posted March 12, 2007 07:38 PM
I can read, I just don't believe. Come on, all three teams have bad fuel pumps. I think it went a little more like this. Hey did you hear Duhamels fuel pump went bad? Really, we better go with that story too. If Honda and Dunlop find out we ran out of gas we're going to be in big trouble. I believe one guy had a bad fuel pump but the rest jumped on board to save face. (Quote)AARON GOBERT, No. 96 Honda
"We calculated wrong on the fuel. Maybe the different weather conditions or something, but we were running low and I came in. At the start, I got run off the track in turn one from Pegram sticking up inside of Zemke in turn one of a 200-mile race. That put me in the grass. I was back in the pack. I was just trying to get through. Then in the end, when they did the pit stop, somehow, the fuel wouldn't empty out. It might have been an electrical problem, but apparently it might have been vapor lock. We're not sure yet."
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3Boysand3Bikes
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posted March 12, 2007 07:42 PM
quote:
quote:
How is it "mechanical failure" if you run out of gas? Obviously the "rider" needed to come in a lap earlier. When your wife runs out of gas and you have to get your ass off the couch to bring her gas, do you blame the car? If Hondas don't get the same fuel milage as the other brands than maybe their not so deserving
Dude... apparently you can't read... you need to READ the news story (above.. beginning of the thread) about the race and what happened. They did NOT "run out of gas"
Sorry KB.. I don't buy it. Make your analogy work for the Bubba/Reed scenario.... I'm listening...
Hey Fish... with your opinion... (and I will agree that it is an opinion... so you are not "wrong"), so why do they even race then?? If Bubba deserves to win every race because he is the 'best' out there... why not just give him the trophy now?? My answer is that he can break an arm if someone falls in front of him etc..., The fastest rider/bike is not always the winner, or they would just do time trials. Kawasaki won the race. Period. Is Carmichael in 1st or 2nd then?? he certainly is at least the 2nd best if not the best yet... but you have to start and finish the races. Honda will be back, and they are now going to need to make up the LOSSES. Kawasaki had their bikes tested and ready to go. What if Honda won, and Kawasaki had a fuel problem?? Would Honda have 'won' because they were the fastest, or because they were able to make the whole race?? 2 years ago, Eric Bostrom was looking to be the man to beat, and his Duc broke down... did he win that race then?? Just food for thought.... Regardless, there is going to be some incredible racing this year... and may the BEST bike/rider win.
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clip
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posted March 12, 2007 07:50 PM
I read the story and I'm just not buying it. The Honda's were dropping like flys within minutes of each other. Josh Hayes's bike was dying as he pulled in to pit. One half a lap sooner, and he would have been out as well.
I feel bad for Honda, their riders and their wrenches. These guys all practically walk on water to me. However, I just cannot comprehend the assertion that ALL the bikes had the SAME fuel "problems" at the nearly the exact SAME time in the race. IT COULD NOT HAPPEN, - it's statistically one in a million... Someone screwed the pooch with the gas and the whole team got caught up in it.
A few years back I was in the Jon at Mid-Ohio washing my hands next to Miguel Duhamel who was doing the same thing. I got Josh Hayes autograph after the riders meeting. They were both cool as hell...I watched the wrenches bust their asses on a hot summer day making sure their bikes are as good as they can be. I truly feel sorry for what happened - but I'm calling a spade a spade here. I'm not buying the official story. Sorry...
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stevewfl
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posted March 12, 2007 08:08 PM
Edited By: stevewfl on 12 Mar 2007 20:08
whether they ran out of gas or the bikes broke, whether it was a pit crew chief error or a bad batch of Honda parts, they would rather  than have another Daytona 200, as they performed THAT poorly.
And I remember seeing the Honda flags ALL over the track, and all over bike week at Daytona. Then the announcer said "and its important to Honda to WIN at Daytona, no matter what they do the rest of the season
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swainic
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posted March 12, 2007 10:39 PM
It seems to me that the American Honda team assigned a guy to do the fuel calculations, but he forgot that there's a reasonable quantity of fuel that is always unusable when the fuel pump starts to suck air. I'll bet they just calculated the whole tank capacity forgetting this important point. All the other teams just turned to American Honda for the fuel calculations. That's why they all conked out at about the same time.
Also a point that I havn't seen yet is that the 200 is a team effort, it's not just the rider. Did anyone notice how incredibly fast the Attack team was at changing wheels and re-fuelling? I think Honda's best time was about 10 seconds slower for the same pit stop.
Oh and I seem to remember that Rapp led the race during the lap that Du Hamel sputtered to a stop, so those who think this was handed to K on a plate need to re-think their priorities.
I think that if the shoe was on the other foot, and Attack got the fuel consumption wrong, Kawasaki wouldn't hear the last of it. Seems to me that all the press reports are playing down this enormous blunder by Honda making it some kind of mystery problem where no-one is taking the heat for it. Is the media so controlled and muted by this Honda giant that they can't just tell it how it is? I wouldn't be surprised if Ron Heben gets quietly booted out of the Honda camp for this mess because ultimately he is probably responsible for it all and the world probably won't get a whisper of it.
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fish_antlers
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posted March 13, 2007 12:09 AM
okay... so I personally witness them drain 4 laps worth of fuel from the bike, but you (philmy3rdleg) dont believe it... oh fuckin well... good thing I took pix of it... oh.. but those pix must be fotochopped then? Maybe the aliens took the fuel and none of this ever happened
*yawn* ... oh.. phil... I dont believe you ever responded in this post... you say you did... but I dont believe it.
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Ninjaman12R
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posted March 13, 2007 06:31 AM
fish, your twisted views never cease to amaze me. No matter what goes down, the man leading on the LAST lap wins. All other could've ,should've, would've, bullshit is out the window at that point. To finish first, first you must finish......dumbass.
Josh Hayes was still in the race, why didn't he win??? Because he got his ass beat fair and square. Excuses are just that, excuses. The Attack guys kicked ass, had bulletproof bikes, and did great work in the pits. They fully deserved the win, and Steve was in the mix ALL day, not just after the Hondas had problems.
If everyone had their head up their ass like you, there'd be no need to race.
I don't care what your response is to this, it'll be the same old shit as far as I'm concerned. I know you are never wrong, and appologize in advance for ever implying that you are.
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fish_antlers
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posted March 13, 2007 06:47 AM
You honestly fail to see the difference between the fastest bikes driven by the fastest guys on the track losing to rider error vs a mechanical glitch?
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philmy3rdleg
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posted March 13, 2007 07:12 AM
OK, I believe more than one bike had electronic problems. But, Steve Rapp is just as fast as Josh Hayes and that new kawi is just as fast in formula X mode as the Honda and even faster in supersport. Steve Rapp is FAST and a good guy also. The Attack guys are just as hard of workers as the Honda guys. Also the last time I checked deserve has nothing to do with racing. Rossi won more races last year than Hayden...........Should you also take Stoners win this weekend away because his bike was faster? Thats not fair. STEVE RAPP AND ATTACK GOT THE JOB DONE!
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fish_antlers
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posted March 13, 2007 07:35 AM
quote:
Rossi won more races last year than Hayden...........
exactly.
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Ninjaman12R
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posted March 13, 2007 08:27 AM
quote:
You honestly fail to see the difference between the fastest bikes driven by the fastest guys on the track losing to rider error vs a mechanical glitch?
No I see the difference between them clearly, it's the end result that you and I aren't in agreement on. To me it's all lumped in together as a total package, you've got to finish the race in order to ever have a shot at a win. I can see from a rider's standpoint the frustration of a mechanical DNF, especially after dicing it up at the front of the pack all day. But it's all part of racing in my book. That is NOT saying I wouldn't have been pissed if I were said rider who's machine failed. But again, it takes the total package to win, and that includes a bike that will hold up the entire race.
It's a difference of opinion, no harm, no foul. The race is in the books now, and Rapp is credited with the win which he deserved.
I do see where you are coming from though.
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k bryant
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posted March 13, 2007 09:40 AM
quote:
quote:
How is it "mechanical failure" if you run out of gas? Obviously the "rider" needed to come in a lap earlier. When your wife runs out of gas and you have to get your ass off the couch to bring her gas, do you blame the car? If Hondas don't get the same fuel milage as the other brands than maybe their not so deserving
Dude... apparently you can't read... you need to READ the news story (above.. beginning of the thread) about the race and what happened. They did NOT "run out of gas"
quote:
Sorry KB.. I don't buy it. Make your analogy work for the Bubba/Reed scenario.... I'm listening...
The same debate works for all. You believe there is a difference between a mechanical failure and/or a crash. And I do understand how you look at it, as well as the argument. But to me, as a racer, it's the same result from a pure racing standpoint: DNF. They both hurt.
Now for Bubba & Chad. I don't believe there is any debate at all as to who is faster. Hands down Bubba is the fastest SX/MX rider on the planet when he keeps it on two wheels. But like I said previously, it's a mute point if you are talking about winning races and/or championships. It's not always the fastest rider who wins.
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philmy3rdleg
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posted March 13, 2007 11:12 AM
Last word.. Ha ha
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squicker
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posted March 13, 2007 11:26 AM
quote:
It's sort of lame, to be celebrating a win like that...They did'nt win at all, Honda broke.
I'm a Kawi fan, but that ain't winnin'
Do ya know, as my bro said so well, in all the years we've been racing I have never heard Honda say ' we only won cos the rest weren't very good and didn't perform very well'........and that includes motogp over here when the effing kawas seem hellbent on taking each other out......Mr Honda has never said ' hollow victory that, cos Randy De Puniet fell off and let us win'. The winner, in my book, is the guy that crosses the finish line first.........end of story.
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dougmeyer
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posted March 13, 2007 03:35 PM
Here's the way it works (without telemetry). During practice you fill the tank and run race laps. Then you RE-Fill the tank and note how much fuel you used per lap. That becomes your fuel consumption number. It's a no-BS number. At sometime during practice or development you run the bike out of gas. Then you drain out whats left. That's called unusable fuel and you always subreact that from the tank capacity.
During the race you count laps, multiply times the consumption per lap. When that number approaches the tank capacity minus unusable fuel, you git yer ass to the pits.
Before the pit stop you carefully put a measured amount of gas in the dump can. After the stop, you determine how much you dumped. You comapre this to the race laps run on that fill and then you can verify your per - lap consumption at each stop.
I know this because fuel consumption and measuring pit fills was my responsibility when I was at Daytona with the Muzzys team.
But, like Kerry says, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter why you didn't cross the finish line first, just that you didn't.
Doug
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Ninjaman12R
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posted March 14, 2007 03:31 AM
quote:
It really doesn't matter why you didn't cross the finish line first, just that you didn't.
Doug
The man has spoken, and this seems to be the way most racers, and race fans, view it.
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princesskiwi
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posted March 14, 2007 09:45 AM
Lap 7 - 15,1,34,157
Lap 8 - 17,15,1, 34
Lap 9 - 17,15,1, 34
Lap 10 - 1, 17,15,34
Lap 11 - 1,34,17,15
Lap 12 - 1,34,17,15
Lap 13 - 1,34,17,15
Lap 14 - 1,17,34,15
Lap 15 - 1,34,17,15
Lap 16 - 1,15,17, 34
Lap 17 - 17, 15, 1,34
lap 18 - 17,1,15,34
Lap 19 - 1, 15,17, 157
Lap 20 - 15, 1, 17, 157
Lap 21 - 157, 34, 40, 12 **Honda's 17 Duhamel and 98 Zemke suffer technical difficulties
Lap 22 Honda's 96 Aaron Gobert pulled over to the side of the track.
1 - Josh Hayes, Honda
15 - Steve Rapp, Kawasaki
17 - Miguel Duhamel, Honda
40 - Jason Disalvo, Yamaha
157 - Chaz Davies, Yamaha
34 - Michael F. Barnes, Suzuki
12 - Ben Attard, Kawasaki
# 12 Ben Attard of Attack Kawasaki did not pull into pit until lap 25 and his second in lap 48
#1 Josh Hayes, Honda had a second pit on lap 38 and a third in lap 54
I missed the first couple of laps because I was watching the start.
If you want - I can list the lap order for the remainer of the race, this is the race up until Honda had problems.
Josh Hayes, (#1, Honda) came into Victory Circle and give congrats to the Attack Kawasaki Racing team and to Ben Attard, and to Steve Rapp, Kawasaki and Micheal F. Barnes, Suzuki.
Josh used to Race with Attack Kawasaki.
If Josh can say "good race' - then the rest of us, should give the race to the racers who worked hard to cross the finish line.
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Lucky Lo
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posted March 14, 2007 03:05 PM
Nice PK. Well said. 
Shake & Bake
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pmkin10r
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posted March 14, 2007 06:38 PM
Events shape men as much as men shape events. Sometimes details, like say, that pesky Russian winter change history.
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ZREXER
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posted March 14, 2007 07:01 PM
Winning a race is a team effort. A great bike alone will not win a race. A great rider can some times elevate his game to where he can win on a bike that is not the best on the track.................but would be hard pressed to do this for a full season.
An individual race win does not mean all that much, it is what happens over an entire season that really matters
The team that has the least rider error, mechanical error will generally be the team that wins a series championship.
In the case of the Daytona 200, it was unusual to see Honda have the kind of problems they did. What happened to Honda, does not diminish Kawasaki's win. It's about how well the team perfomed.
In any case, the new Kawasaki 600's look like a contender this year for sure.
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Zammy
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posted March 15, 2007 07:23 AM
Rapp STAYED in the lead pack ALL of the race ,so how can you take ANYTHING from him ? Honda had a faulty vent on their quick fuel system. Who is to say they would have won ? What if Hondas tires went away , what if Hondas riders went down ,what if ,what if ? NOTHING changes the results ,and I think Rapp will prove it with at least a podium at Barbers. Rapp AND Kawasaki are BACK !!
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stevewfl
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posted March 15, 2007 07:54 AM
If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle. As bad as I wanted Honda to win, Kawasaki finished 1st.
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fish_antlers
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posted March 15, 2007 08:42 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 15 Mar 2007 09:44
quote:
Rapp STAYED in the lead pack ALL of the race ,so how can you take ANYTHING from him ?
uh... uh... uh.. no... I guess you didnt watch the same race the rest of us did, nor can you read... look to the post above by PrincessKiwi and see the race order for every lap.. Rapp didnt NOT lead the pack for all of the race nor did he stay in the lead pack (I assume the "top 3") for all of the race.
Not true.
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