TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 26, 2010 09:14 AM
The problem is getting one. I takes time for someone to produce one. A hardware restriction is much easier to fix because the aftermarket can easily over come it. REMEMBER the euro bike is not restricted.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted October 26, 2010 09:17 AM
quote:
The problem is getting one. I takes time for someone to produce one. A hardware restriction is much easier to fix because the aftermarket can easily over come it. REMEMBER the euro bike is not restricted.
+1
took YEC a year to have them available for the '09 R1. Extremely expensive, needs race harness to go with it, etc.
In the mean time we saw what Aprilia and BMW offered up in North America
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 26, 2010 09:18 AM
 Edited By: Shane661 on 26 Oct 2010 17:33
quote:
The problem is getting one. I takes time for someone to produce one. A hardware restriction is much easier to fix because the aftermarket can easily over come it. REMEMBER the euro bike is not restricted.
When is the last time you sent out a cylinder head to have oversize buckets and big cams installed? Hell, you wouldn't even be able to run stock pistons due to ptv clearance issues. Then you need pistons, and to replate the cylinder....which means splitting the cases and tearing the whole engine apart.
The electronic restriction is so much better than that... 
Exactly right on the Euro bike...so, perhaps just the oem Euro ecu will do it? We don't know yet, but it is too early for all of this doom and gloom...
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ThunderCK
Junior Member
Posts: 201
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posted October 26, 2010 09:31 AM
quote:
Well for starters, I was a factory trained Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, KTM, Triumph, BSA, Can-am, Husky, mechanic to mention a few. But that was a while ago. As for modern electronics I was the chief R+D engineer for a very large electronic based company that specialized in embedded systems. There are people here on this board that can attest to that. Today I am the director of embedded systems that is the cutting edge of technology for flash based recording of motion picture media. I write code that can take write up to 60 frames per second at 10mb a frame to flash memory.
That doesn't even begin to describe it. I have built from scratch, electronic fuel injection systems using microchip's processors.
And even today YOU have used some of my electronic inventions, and mfgs of products you have used, use my code to develop their products.
Is that enough???
Some ECUs can be reflashed, some can't. Actually Harley has one of the best systems out there.
This conversation is not about the details of making a bike run better, we all know that it can be done, it is about public perception and what they will buy.
I have never been turned on more then I am right now...
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ThunderCK
Junior Member
Posts: 201
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posted October 26, 2010 09:39 AM
This ones for you!
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 26, 2010 09:41 AM
Edited By: TedG on 26 Oct 2010 17:44
quote:
quote:
Well for starters, I was a factory trained Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, KTM, Triumph, BSA, Can-am, Husky, mechanic to mention a few. But that was a while ago. As for modern electronics I was the chief R+D engineer for a very large electronic based company that specialized in embedded systems. There are people here on this board that can attest to that. Today I am the director of embedded systems that is the cutting edge of technology for flash based recording of motion picture media. I write code that can take write up to 60 frames per second at 10mb a frame to flash memory.
That doesn't even begin to describe it. I have built from scratch, electronic fuel injection systems using microchip's processors.
And even today YOU have used some of my electronic inventions, and mfgs of products you have used, use my code to develop their products.
Is that enough???
Some ECUs can be reflashed, some can't. Actually Harley has one of the best systems out there.
This conversation is not about the details of making a bike run better, we all know that it can be done, it is about public perception and what they will buy.
I have never been turned on more then I am right now...
As you should be. The funny part is most likely you have used some of my inventions.
Not only that but many of you are seeing the direct result of code I have written on a weekly basis.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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ThunderCK
Junior Member
Posts: 201
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posted October 26, 2010 09:44 AM
Edited By: ThunderCK on 26 Oct 2010 17:44
I am guessing the double anal vibrator is one of yours? Necessity is the mother of invention 
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 26, 2010 09:45 AM
quote:
I am guessing the double anal vibrator is one of yours? Necessity is the mother of invention
Is that because you have two interchangeable assholes? Your mouth and your butt hole?
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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LAB3
Needs a job
Posts: 2977
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posted October 26, 2010 09:58 AM
quote:
quote:
I am guessing the double anal vibrator is one of yours? Necessity is the mother of invention
Is that because you have two interchangeable assholes? Your mouth and your butt hole?
LMAO that is FUNNY
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ThunderCK
Junior Member
Posts: 201
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posted October 26, 2010 09:58 AM
That hurts Ted, why you gotta hit me below the belt?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted October 26, 2010 10:46 AM
quote:
Fish, are you willing to put money on the "Real Joes" being a factory promoted video?
Good question - I'd be willing to bet case of beer on it -
Here's the deal. The 10R is NOT available to the public to test or ride. Kawasaki isn't letting anyone take it on a track unless they're authorizing it, and the fact that they strong-armed us into pulling down our video while leaving that sugarcoated video to stand should be indication enough that the video is nothing more than marketing pap.
Sure the guys riding the bikes may be normal track day dudes, but KHI is pulling the puppet strings and that's for sure.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted October 26, 2010 10:55 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 26 Oct 2010 18:56
quote:
The good part is that the restriction is electronic.
The hardware is fantastic.
agreed...
quote:
"Most likely a new ECU is going to be required"...is just speculation at this point.
well ... Bikeland has a 10 year, 100% accurate track record for predicting what's next so I'd love to agree with you, but based on Bikeland's past performance I'd be will to guess that it ain't speculation -
We can always hope though! 
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted October 26, 2010 11:00 AM
so what about the videos?
how do you feel about verticalscope and kawi now?
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 26, 2010 11:17 AM
quote:
quote:
The problem is getting one. I takes time for someone to produce one. A hardware restriction is much easier to fix because the aftermarket can easily over come it. REMEMBER the euro bike is not restricted.
When is the last time you sent out a cylinder head to have oversize buckets and big cams installed? Hell, you wouldn't even be able to run stock pistons due to ptv clearance issues. Then you need pistons, and to replate the cylinder....which means splitting the cases and tearing the whole engine apart.
The electronic restriction is so much better than that...
Exactly right on the Euro bike...so, perhaps just the oem Euro ecu will do it? We don't know yet, but it is too early for all of this doom and gloom...
You are not taking everything into account.
The bike's original design has the hardware to make the big hp and rpms that is a given at this point. To restrict it they are going to go the easiest route possible. They aren't going to change heads, cams, or for that matter anything in the engine. That would be too expensive. So they will change the ECU, they flash them at the factory and there is no hardware change to them. So the ECU programming is fucked. The problem is we don't have the base code or the means to reflash them. Coming up with new stuff is going to take time most likely a year or so.
Now a hardware change to neuter the bike like an air flow restrictor, or even a pipe, then it is a cake walk. I still think the very best restriction would have been a sticker denoting a lower red line. Now that is a hardware change we could live with.
What is the single most expensive part on the bike? Not an assembly but single part.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted October 26, 2010 11:54 AM
Edited By: fish_antlers on 26 Oct 2010 20:38
Do you think that delaying our videos will change anything?
Kawasaki is simply delaying the inevitable. You can't hide from the truth.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
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posted October 26, 2010 12:37 PM
____________
What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 26, 2010 12:45 PM
Edited By: TedG on 26 Oct 2010 20:48
quote:
That hurts Ted, why you gotta hit me below the belt?
Just a gentle counter punch. Payback for the anal vibrator crack.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted October 26, 2010 12:48 PM
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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Famous1
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted October 26, 2010 01:44 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
The problem is getting one. I takes time for someone to produce one. A hardware restriction is much easier to fix because the aftermarket can easily over come it. REMEMBER the euro bike is not restricted.
When is the last time you sent out a cylinder head to have oversize buckets and big cams installed? Hell, you wouldn't even be able to run stock pistons due to ptv clearance issues. Then you need pistons, and to replate the cylinder....which means splitting the cases and tearing the whole engine apart.
The electronic restriction is so much better than that...
Exactly right on the Euro bike...so, perhaps just the oem Euro ecu will do it? We don't know yet, but it is too early for all of this doom and gloom...
You are not taking everything into account.
The bike's original design has the hardware to make the big hp and rpms that is a given at this point. To restrict it they are going to go the easiest route possible. They aren't going to change heads, cams, or for that matter anything in the engine. That would be too expensive. So they will change the ECU, they flash them at the factory and there is no hardware change to them. So the ECU programming is fucked. The problem is we don't have the base code or the means to reflash them. Coming up with new stuff is going to take time most likely a year or so.
Now a hardware change to neuter the bike like an air flow restrictor, or even a pipe, then it is a cake walk. I still think the very best restriction would have been a sticker denoting a lower red line. Now that is a hardware change we could live with.
What is the single most expensive part on the bike? Not an assembly but single part.
not to get too technical here but...... if all hard parts are the same..... all thats left is fuel, fire and air...... all of which can be altered independently of the ecu......relax..
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 26, 2010 01:50 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The problem is getting one. I takes time for someone to produce one. A hardware restriction is much easier to fix because the aftermarket can easily over come it. REMEMBER the euro bike is not restricted.
When is the last time you sent out a cylinder head to have oversize buckets and big cams installed? Hell, you wouldn't even be able to run stock pistons due to ptv clearance issues. Then you need pistons, and to replate the cylinder....which means splitting the cases and tearing the whole engine apart.
The electronic restriction is so much better than that...
Exactly right on the Euro bike...so, perhaps just the oem Euro ecu will do it? We don't know yet, but it is too early for all of this doom and gloom...
You are not taking everything into account.
The bike's original design has the hardware to make the big hp and rpms that is a given at this point. To restrict it they are going to go the easiest route possible. They aren't going to change heads, cams, or for that matter anything in the engine. That would be too expensive. So they will change the ECU, they flash them at the factory and there is no hardware change to them. So the ECU programming is fucked. The problem is we don't have the base code or the means to reflash them. Coming up with new stuff is going to take time most likely a year or so.
Now a hardware change to neuter the bike like an air flow restrictor, or even a pipe, then it is a cake walk. I still think the very best restriction would have been a sticker denoting a lower red line. Now that is a hardware change we could live with.
What is the single most expensive part on the bike? Not an assembly but single part.
not to get too technical here but...... if all hard parts are the same..... all thats left is fuel, fire and air...... all of which can be altered independently of the ecu......relax..
Another one that is missing the point.
Altering the ECU is not trivial and can be very expensive and/or time consuming. Most Kawasaki ECUs cannot be reflashed. Wouldn't you rather change an airbox or a pipe than an ECU?
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Famous1
Expert Class
Posts: 402
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posted October 26, 2010 02:19 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The problem is getting one. I takes time for someone to produce one. A hardware restriction is much easier to fix because the aftermarket can easily over come it. REMEMBER the euro bike is not restricted.
When is the last time you sent out a cylinder head to have oversize buckets and big cams installed? Hell, you wouldn't even be able to run stock pistons due to ptv clearance issues. Then you need pistons, and to replate the cylinder....which means splitting the cases and tearing the whole engine apart.
The electronic restriction is so much better than that...
Exactly right on the Euro bike...so, perhaps just the oem Euro ecu will do it? We don't know yet, but it is too early for all of this doom and gloom...
You are not taking everything into account.
The bike's original design has the hardware to make the big hp and rpms that is a given at this point. To restrict it they are going to go the easiest route possible. They aren't going to change heads, cams, or for that matter anything in the engine. That would be too expensive. So they will change the ECU, they flash them at the factory and there is no hardware change to them. So the ECU programming is fucked. The problem is we don't have the base code or the means to reflash them. Coming up with new stuff is going to take time most likely a year or so.
Now a hardware change to neuter the bike like an air flow restrictor, or even a pipe, then it is a cake walk. I still think the very best restriction would have been a sticker denoting a lower red line. Now that is a hardware change we could live with.
What is the single most expensive part on the bike? Not an assembly but single part.
not to get too technical here but...... if all hard parts are the same..... all thats left is fuel, fire and air...... all of which can be altered independently of the ecu......relax..
Another one that is missing the point.
Altering the ECU is not trivial and can be very expensive and/or time consuming. Most Kawasaki ECUs cannot be reflashed. Wouldn't you rather change an airbox or a pipe than an ECU?
well the pipe is going to get changed anyway....and my point is ... hard parts being the same.... the only way the ecu can have a effect on the power output is by altering either the fuel, fire, or air... all of which can be adjusted independently of the ecu ala power commander or bazzaz box or whatever you chose.....relax...
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 26, 2010 02:32 PM
So you would rather change the pipe AND fuck with the ecu. And sometimes you can't alter the rev limiting with an easy solution. And in the mean time before they come out with these "just drop in some new electronics" the 10 is going to get it's ass handed to it by the BMW in every magazine on the planet that people who by 10S read. Then the sales flop starts, then no one wants to make these "super easy" fixes because there isn't a big enough base, then the spiral starts.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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MJ
Zone Head
Posts: 560
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posted October 26, 2010 02:56 PM
quote:
quote:
but you'd need a 20hp ringer to match what the bmw mag bikes put out, let alone beat it (159 vs 179)? Wouldn't that border on illegal? False advertising or such?
How long can this charade go on? lol.
I can't wait to see the end of this movie.......
What are you talking about? The only comparison of the two on the same dyno showed an 8 hp deficit for the restricted 10R.
Look at the hardware and real-world performance capability; stop living in a magazine. If we believed magazine hype, we would all be riding 1985 V-Maxes. 
Personally, I don't care about reviews from magazines and websites. I wait unitl the people start buying them, and get their feedback. Even if a website or magazine is unbiased, I expect the manufacturer to supply them with ringers.
Whether we like it/believe it or not, magazine info and dyno numbers have a huge impact on bikes sales, and the bike makers know it. We know the dyno numbers are rigged to a degree, but the average joe STILL uses those numbers as a big part of his buying decision. All the magazine tests I read of the bmw in all the major mags had the bmw running in the mid 170's to low 180's rwhp. If kawi can't get their ringer 10 somewhere near that in the mag tests then I think they'll be in trouble. I imagine they'll just stick the race ecu and pipe on their ringer before the mag test and probably be in the ballpark though 
You're in the minority shane about not caring for magazines or websites info, and the minority doesn't make or break a new bike's sales success. In fact it sounds like even though you love the bike to death, and can't stop preaching its potential, you won't even be buying one? 
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INTIMIDA2OR
Needs a life
RED rider!
Posts: 13081
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posted October 26, 2010 03:18 PM
____________
'06 Passion Red ZX-14
*Lee*
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 26, 2010 03:22 PM
Oh, ok, I get it. This thread isn't about the potential or performance of the machine...
It is about marketing, media hype, and sales #'s. My bad...
1985 V-Maxes for all!!!!
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