Wheelie High
Novice Class
Neal
Posts: 87
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posted October 25, 2010 06:58 PM
quote:
quote:
Ah yes, but all is for naught if those valves float.
Uhh..since the valvetrain on this bike is designed for 14k rpm, I doubt that float will be an issue.
This thing looks great. I can't wait to see one with big cams, stiff springs, spinning to 15k rpm...WOW!
YEEEEAAH baby!! And another couple points in compression and pull the harmonic crap off the crank! Anybody wanna buy a ZX14 so that I can put a deposit on a 2011 ZX10R ?? LOL
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Straight line or bend it... I'm there!!
  
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted October 25, 2010 07:09 PM
quote:
The new 10R, when unrestricted, should trump the BMW. 
I personally don't care about what it does stock...and the last thing I want is a bike engineered to appeal to the ignorant. The hardware and hp potential of this machine is impressive.
I'd love to have one!
I agree 100%
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted October 25, 2010 07:10 PM
quote:
But what will you have to buy to uncork it? Another 2k worth of electronics and pipe? Now you have a $17,000 liter bike. Or did they restrict it? Could be that it is underpowered and make us believe that it an EPA thing. Good reason for owning the news outlets. They may be just using this site as a puppet.
I also agree with this 100%
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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Wheelie High
Novice Class
Neal
Posts: 87
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posted October 25, 2010 07:14 PM
quote:
Shane,
Remind me to never consider any review you produce - clearly you lack the ability to present the pros and cons of anything - you fit in perfectly at any verticlescope owned site or print mag.
I love how Bikeland gets strong-armed while the marketing company owned verticlescope websites spew a constant fake stream of "inside info" rubber stamped by kawi's marketers.
You honestly don't even know the half of it and it is a fucking joke - all of you are being spoon fed by them and that is a fact. Fuck me I gain more and more respect for hell for leather ever day I see contrived bullshit maneuvers like this being pulled on real websites that aren't owned by the man.
Tell me again how its possible that a major print mag had this story on the shelves for sale before the Internet gag order was removed? An accident? 
Damn! I gotta agree with you on that one because that mag has been a sell out for YEARS!! I love my Kawi's but if that mag has the so called info I'm not holding my breath on true specs! I have an 09' now and truth fully.... I'm waiting for 2012 to see what Suzuki does with the 1k.
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Straight line or bend it... I'm there!!
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Rideharder
Zone Head
Posts: 821
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posted October 25, 2010 07:22 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I'm trying to figure out why they are upset.
Fish, is this a bike in your possession on loan for testing and reporting on? and you filmed this stuff and they didnt like it? Or do they not want you taking the bike apart?
Or they dont want you showing stuff before the mags do?
??
Apparently the double standard is that they dont want any INDEPENDENT coverage - the same info is okay to be hosted by Motorcyclist, Cycleworld or any Verticalscope run forum - you need to educate yourself on that because a few years back a marketing company named Verticalscope bought most of the biker forums including zxforums, zx-10r.net and more. they also bought motorcycle.com . Part of the promise to OEMs is control of content and material. Kawi has control over those sites - note that there has been raw footage of the 10r on the track and even on the dyno on those sites - topics with pics of guys riding the bike in the wild - riding impressions etc... that's all controlled by verticalcope -
so if something independent that's not part of the spoon feeding information machine is released (say by bikeland or hell for leather) kawi freaks out because they didnt have a chance to control it.
so there is a double standard.
Time to rock the net.. hmm fish?!
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted October 25, 2010 08:04 PM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 26 Oct 2010 04:07
quote:
Obviously you know that many modern ecu's can be reflashed for well under $500, to remove speed limiters and raise rpm. Obviously you know that a typical dyno jet ignition module is about $250 and can raise the rev limit.
According to Kawi (and again I'm repeating myself) the fix isn't as easy as popping in a power commander. According to them the limitations are so involved that the only real way to uncork the bike is switching the ECU.
Now is that bullshit? I don't know but I have that on reliable sources. I suppose time will tell.
On another and more significant note as raised earlier in this topic - will the 10R be to the BMW what the 12R was to the Busa? Beta to VHS? Better from a geek's perspective but never really hits its mark with sales or performance.
Will it always be that "one step behind" in consumer's eyes?
I mean - to win at this game the 10R really needs to kick the shit out of the BMW. It doesn't appear to do that at this point - it's losing on pricepoint alone. For $15K you can get a lot of nice stuff including the BMW and several Ducatis, but a Japanese literbike that will be worth 6K in 4 to 5 years? That's got me wondering.
And Ted has a valid point - if you can start at real and verified 180rwhp with a BMW right out of the box without any tinkering then that's another hit.
Sure you can do a pipe blah blah but until I see what a stocker with a stock pipe and race or Euro ecu we wont know what we're comparing.
I'm surprised this is happening - Kawi should have learned from their near miss with the 12R.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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Human
Novice Class
Posts: 53
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posted October 25, 2010 09:44 PM
Fish you are correct, the ECU needs to be replaced, can't be reflashed.
seems like KHI has a few lessons to learn...I remember the messup when the honda crosstour engineer was defending the vehicle on a social forum and someone then revealed that he was the engineer for the vehicle....the stupid "real joes" video is much worse, what real joe can afford to have 3-4 bikes on track and camera quality and shots that seem to be classic Kawasaki slow motion action shots ?
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estacado
Parking Attendant
Posts: 2
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posted October 25, 2010 10:37 PM
Edited By: estacado on 26 Oct 2010 06:39
Fish, are you willing to put money on the "Real Joes" being a factory promoted video?
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted October 25, 2010 10:49 PM
quote:
Fish, are you willing to put money on the "Real Joes" being a factory promoted video?
hmmm... a 1st post challenging question
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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MJ
Zone Head
Posts: 560
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posted October 25, 2010 11:49 PM
Good bike or not, unless they do some serious discounting on the new 10 its going to be a sales failure because of the hp restrictions and high price. Only the diehard hp junkies and racers will look past the initial hp numbers to realize the full potential, and there won't be enough of them to make the bike a success. The average joe will see the high sticker price and low hp compared to the bmw and pass. Kawasaki knows it, and thats why they're trying to stifle any negative info they can about the bike. Like Shane said Its the US regulations fault the bikes restricted, but its kawi's fault for trying to hide the fact. I just wonder how kawi's going to hide the low hp numbers when the magazines test the bike against the bmw? I know the mags get ringers with a few hp more than showroom bikes.......but you'd need a 20hp ringer to match what the bmw mag bikes put out, let alone beat it (159 vs 179)? Wouldn't that border on illegal? False advertising or such?
How long can this charade go on? lol.
I can't wait to see the end of this movie.......
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Wheelie High
Novice Class
Neal
Posts: 87
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posted October 26, 2010 02:57 AM
quote:
Good bike or not, unless they do some serious discounting on the new 10 its going to be a sales failure because of the hp restrictions and high price. Only the diehard hp junkies and racers will look past the initial hp numbers to realize the full potential, and there won't be enough of them to make the bike a success. The average joe will see the high sticker price and low hp compared to the bmw and pass. Kawasaki knows it, and thats why they're trying to stifle any negative info they can about the bike. Like Shane said Its the US regulations fault the bikes restricted, but its kawi's fault for trying to hide the fact. I just wonder how kawi's going to hide the low hp numbers when the magazines test the bike against the bmw? I know the mags get ringers with a few hp more than showroom bikes.......but you'd need a 20hp ringer to match what the bmw mag bikes put out, let alone beat it (159 vs 179)? Wouldn't that border on illegal? False advertising or such?
How long can this charade go on? lol.
I can't wait to see the end of this movie.......
That's exactly what I was thinking! Maybe I should buy one and just be prepared for a class action law suit! I'm getting pretty tired of hoping and wishing for KMC to get a backbone and stand up straight and speak the truth about their products and practices. I really love Kawasaki over everything else but I buy in order to get more "BANG" for my buck! Fingers are crossed, but I wouldn't be surprised....
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 26, 2010 03:39 AM
quote:
but you'd need a 20hp ringer to match what the bmw mag bikes put out, let alone beat it (159 vs 179)? Wouldn't that border on illegal? False advertising or such?
How long can this charade go on? lol.
I can't wait to see the end of this movie.......
What are you talking about? The only comparison of the two on the same dyno showed an 8 hp deficit for the restricted 10R.
Look at the hardware and real-world performance capability; stop living in a magazine. If we believed magazine hype, we would all be riding 1985 V-Maxes. 
Personally, I don't care about reviews from magazines and websites. I wait unitl the people start buying them, and get their feedback. Even if a website or magazine is unbiased, I expect the manufacturer to supply them with ringers.
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Wheelie High
Novice Class
Neal
Posts: 87
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posted October 26, 2010 04:13 AM
quote:
Fish, are you willing to put money on the "Real Joes" being a factory promoted video?
How familiar is anyone here with "Red Line Calgary" (redlinecalgary.com)?? They seem to shoot straight but they're saying they have run the BMW S1000RR, 2010 ZX10R and 2011 ZX10R on their dyno and have to hold back on the results. In the Red Line forum they say all of the previous Beemers (approximately 6-8) tested at 169hp. They have a GSXR1000 that put down 153hp but for some reason they do not have "1" ZX10R dyno available to be viewed! Not a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd generation! Is this just a coincidence or conspiracy in the making???
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 26, 2010 04:23 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 26 Oct 2010 12:24
My local dyno also got 169 hp from a BMW. The BMW was up 8 hp over a stock 2008 10R that they tested.
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Wheelie High
Novice Class
Neal
Posts: 87
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posted October 26, 2010 04:55 AM
quote:
My local dyno also got 169 hp from a BMW. The BMW was up 8 hp over a stock 2008 10R that they tested.
. Hmm, that's not much and it really depends on how well it drives and uses that power. Track wise the 3rd gen ZX10's entry needs BPF's so it can ride thru rather than dive in as it does so the 2011 just may be the road bike its cracked up to be! Wonder how well it'll do as a drag bike??? It needs low and mid torque to get it the hell outta the box if its going to be competitive on the strip. Along with a lighter and stronger clutch basket and springs.
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Straight line or bend it... I'm there!!
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 26, 2010 08:21 AM
quote:
Good bike or not, unless they do some serious discounting on the new 10 its going to be a sales failure because of the hp restrictions and high price. Only the diehard hp junkies and racers will look past the initial hp numbers to realize the full potential, and there won't be enough of them to make the bike a success. The average joe will see the high sticker price and low hp compared to the bmw and pass. Kawasaki knows it, and thats why they're trying to stifle any negative info they can about the bike. Like Shane said Its the US regulations fault the bikes restricted, but its kawi's fault for trying to hide the fact. I just wonder how kawi's going to hide the low hp numbers when the magazines test the bike against the bmw? I know the mags get ringers with a few hp more than showroom bikes.......but you'd need a 20hp ringer to match what the bmw mag bikes put out, let alone beat it (159 vs 179)? Wouldn't that border on illegal? False advertising or such?
How long can this charade go on? lol.
I can't wait to see the end of this movie.......
I agree with this except for this: " Its the US regulations fault the bikes restricted". BULLSHIT!!! for the following reasons.
1. The engineers knew those regulations before they even started the project, they are not a secret. If they didn't they should be canned.
2. The engineers should have known the target HP and met or trumped it WITH the regulations in mind.
3. It the engineers couldn't meet BMW's engineering (which means meeting the regs and making the power and RPMs) they should go commit Hari Kari!
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted October 26, 2010 08:30 AM
+1 TedG
yea now we are at the stage of "Internet herd mentality" of why the jap North American bikes lack pow-ah compared to the euro competition.
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2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 26, 2010 08:34 AM
quote:
+1 TedG
yea now we are at the stage of "Internet herd mentality" of why the jap North American bikes lack pow-ah compared to the euro competition.
Whine on, you crazy diamond...
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 26, 2010 08:37 AM
Shane,
I guess it begs the question, are you going to buy a 10R?
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 26, 2010 08:41 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 26 Oct 2010 16:42
quote:
Shane,
I guess it begs the question, are you going to buy a 10R?
It's possible. It has a lot of potential. Very impressive potential. I always wait for the initial hype to subside. I bought my 2007 14 new, when the '08's had just been released.
On the other hand, the '08-'10 models that everyone seems to pan are 10x the bike most street riders can take advantage of, and a screaming deal. But you can't brag about them at Starbucks.
I had an '06 10R, and liked it a lot. But they made me a deal on the 14 that I could not refuse...
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted October 26, 2010 08:46 AM
quote:
quote:
+1 TedG
yea now we are at the stage of "Internet herd mentality" of why the jap North American bikes lack pow-ah compared to the euro competition.
Whine on, you crazy diamond...
whine? if we Internet hype Kawasaki and the new 10R enough, eventually it will be up there with the competition right out of the box. I don't need a tissue and some cheese to go with that.
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted October 26, 2010 08:46 AM
Edited By: SteveWFL on 26 Oct 2010 16:47
quote:
anyway I need to shut up, I was the one predicting the 10R would be THE bike for 2011
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 26, 2010 08:48 AM
I agree about the potential. But the bad part is if the restriction is electronic, most likely a new ECU is going to be required to get the thing to live up to that potential. Now they may sell the race ECU like they have done for the older 10s, but it was fairly pricy. A Euro ECU might do it. Too bad the restriction is not hardware, then it is an easy fix.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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SteveWFL
Moderator
Posts: 27920
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posted October 26, 2010 08:50 AM
drawback for many bikes is race ECU usually doesn't support the street harness with lights and signals
____________
2010 Concours14
'08 R1 YAMAHA
ZX14 gone!
CBR600RR track bike
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 26, 2010 08:54 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 26 Oct 2010 16:55
quote:
I agree about the potential. But the bad part is if the restriction is electronic, most likely a new ECU is going to be required to get the thing to live up to that potential. Now they may sell the race ECU like they have done for the older 10s, but it was fairly pricy. A Euro ECU might do it. Too bad the restriction is not hardware, then it is an easy fix.
The good part is that the restriction is electronic.
The hardware is fantastic.
They could have produced an engine will small throttle bodies, soft cams, tiny buckets, small valves, etc...is that a better way to restrict power?
"Most likely a new ECU is going to be required"...is just speculation at this point. It would be the exception if that were the case, as I pointed out earlier. Everyone is whining about this and the bikes have not even hit the streets.
And if it does require an ECU? Big deal, most people can roll it to the financing. With the deals you can get on Jap bikes you will still be paying less than a BMW. In fact, even if paying cash you will still likely get a 10R and ECU for less than a BMW. Look at the demographic.
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