fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted October 08, 2010 12:40 PM
 Edited By: fish_antlers on 8 Oct 2010 20:41
Page 3?  
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
   
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Ken 12r
Novice Class
Posts: 86
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posted October 08, 2010 02:09 PM
Welcome to our world,we have had this shit for ten years now but there is always a way to get back the ponies that have been removed if enough clever people care to look at the problem.
Even the BMW with its fleet of sensors can be tuned to give what it should give by right.
The bigger problem we have on the horizon is the Eurocrats with nothing better to do are trying to find a way of making our bikes a tamper free zone,in other words zreo modifications to the stock machine,bye bye cans or power commanders and just about everything else.
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www.uklandspeedracingassociation.co.uk
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 08, 2010 04:48 PM
I'm skeptical, something is just wrong here. This could be just some sort of self protection propaganda to keep the nazis at bay. Either that or there is something that can be removed to bring back the hp, like a restriction in the air box.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted October 08, 2010 05:11 PM
There's no conspiracy here Ted...its about makin $$$ for speed in return !!!
Speed is Good 
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
*****DragRacers do it better, because they dont cut Corners*****
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted October 08, 2010 08:54 PM
quote:
There's no conspiracy here Ted...its about makin $$$ for speed in return !!!
Speed is Good
That is exactly my point. You ain't selling shit unless it is a primo performer with big numbers.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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dubious
Needs a life
Needs more time to ride!
Posts: 8442
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posted October 11, 2010 02:33 PM
quote:
I'm skeptical, something is just wrong here. This could be just some sort of self protection propaganda to keep the nazis at bay. Either that or there is something that can be removed to bring back the hp, like a restriction in the air box.
haha , yup its called secondary throttle plates! .... just humerous speculation! :P
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natural selection.....
destiny will overcome intervention.
Some are not worthy of the effort.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 11, 2010 03:47 PM
I have seen huge restrictor plates installed to bring French bikes down to 100 hp...so you never know...
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shiphteey
Needs a job
Posts: 2529
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posted October 11, 2010 05:29 PM
quote:
I have seen huge restrictor plates installed to bring French bikes down to 100 hp...so you never know...
Yeah but Shane, think of all the lives that would be saved by limiting people to just 100 hp! Think of the CHILDREN!!
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Gemini Motorcycles
Topping out everything from Ninja 250s to nitrous ZX-14s.
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted October 12, 2010 11:19 AM
Edited By: Shane661 on 12 Oct 2010 19:21
quote:
Maybe this will help?
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/official-2011-kawasaki-zx-10r-gets-lower-redline
That link has the actual change to the redline....750 rpm.
quote:
The result is that the 2011 Kawasaki ZX-10R passes the Euro III standards, but fails the EPA standards in its unadulterated form. To come into compliance with the EPA’s Noise Control Act, Kawasaki has lowered the rev-limit on the 2011 Kawasaki ZX-10R by 750 rpm in order to meet the new criteria. The byproduct of lowering the rev-limiter will reduce the new ZX-10R’s maximum power output, but Kawasaki isn’t saying by how much.
Kawasaki says its the redline for American 2011 Kawasaki ZX-10R’s will be 13,750 rpm
13750 is apparently the redline for US models...that's a lot better than was initially thought. 
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Kikkomon
Parking Attendant
Posts: 2
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posted October 19, 2010 10:32 AM
What's happening to this bike is the same thing they did to the 08+ cbr1000. They test the noise at half rpm of max power output. Its too loud for US standards so they retard the ignition to cut power which lowers its max power's rpm point. At 11000 rpm will be max power and half of those rpms is where they will test noise emmisions. Dont worry I, sure there wil be an igition retard controller from bazazz or power commander to get all our ponies back.
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Wheelie High
Novice Class
Neal
Posts: 87
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posted October 24, 2010 11:18 AM
quote:
fukk a zx10 . i've got a turbo zx14
What??? Just no respect huh...lol. I have an 09' ZX14 on crack and it still sits in the garage unless its drag nights or the wifey wants to cruise around downtown! My ZX10 is the BEST!! Too much fun!! Besides, the 2011 ZX10R can probably have its soft limiter removed with aftermarket parts for under $100 or so. I don't know about the rest of you guys but I relieved that the limiter was the choice of meeting EPA restrictions! Easy fix dude.... Soft limiter hits at 11,000rpm and red line around 13750rpm! Kool!.... Pull the soft limiter! More than likely a plug and play fix from the after market! I have a 2010 Nissan Maxima with the same issue!! Soft limiter kicks in around 115mph and it kinda dies and goes into cruise control from there. But thanks to the speed freaks its an ECU fix and I'm in business!
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Straight line or bend it... I'm there!!
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Wheelie High
Novice Class
Neal
Posts: 87
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posted October 24, 2010 11:58 AM
quote:
quote:
I have seen huge restrictor plates installed to bring French bikes down to 100 hp...so you never know...
Yeah but Shane, think of all the lives that would be saved by limiting people to just 100 hp! Think of the CHILDREN!!
Horsepower restrictions are not a solution because if you check some of the studies you will see that people are killed at a high rate on bikes with under 100hp like atv's. America has so many more people in it now and the rates are very similar to rates back in the early 80's population wise. If you had something over 100hp back then it was respected like the GPZ 900 Ninja!
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Straight line or bend it... I'm there!!
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MJ
Zone Head
Posts: 560
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posted October 24, 2010 04:09 PM
Whats done is done. We got all the hp we're going to get in the US on 2 wheels. Its a flatline from here until the oil runs out lol
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Element
Parking Attendant
Posts: 18
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posted October 29, 2010 06:25 PM
Time to frame this 2011 ZX-10R power debate in some relevant facts:
The US & Canadian model figures say;
Max Power 131.7 kW (179.1 PS) @ 11,000 rpm
Max Power Ram Air 138.3 kW (188.0 PS) @ 11,000 rpm
Max Torque 112 N.m (11.4 kgf.m) @ 11,000 rpm
Euro (and Aussie) model figures say;
Max Power 147.1 kW (197.2 PS) @ 13,000 rpm
Max Power Ram Air 154.4 kW (207.0 PS) @ 13,000 rpm
Max Torque 114.3 N.m (11.7 kgf.m) @ 11,500 rpm
You may feel pissed by that, but I seriously doubt the Euro-Aussie peak-power numbers are measured rear-wheel power (RW) figures as I will make clear. These will almost certainly be measured at the crank. (i.e. designed to mislead and confuse, which this certainly has)
Manufacturers ALWAYS seek to initially use Brake-hp over RW-hp to confuse for as long as they think they can get away with it, which is, until it's actually tested (and that time is fast approaching so now they will go soft on those excessive power numbers, and hope you all forget about it). Suzuki, Yamaha and Honda all do it. And although people tend to think the Euros are less dishonest, in this regard, I'm yet to see a BMW S1000RR with the 193 horsepower, as BMW claimed i.e.;
193 hp (142 kW) @ 13,000 rpm
83 ft-lbs (112 Nm) @ 9750 rpm
The Aussie S1000RR model as measured (on a well-maintained and calibrated dyno);
184.8 RW-hp (137.8 kW) @ 13,400 rpm
78.65 ft-lbs (106.65 Nm) @ 11600 rpm
Perhaps the Bavarians only meant 'Ram-Air' horsepower then?
Do note the significant differences in claimed and actual rpm peaks - this is also something that all of the manufacturers tend to do - I always check and graph this stuff
Manufacturer power and torque claims are ALWAYS HIGHER than measured. They are NEVER LOWER and also NEVER subsequently verified as factually correct, or consistent. That is at best, bias. The PDF most downloaded regarding the 2011 ZX-10R has several significant errors and inconsistencies;
First,
The rake and trail figure is erroneous. The PDF says 2011 Rake/Trail is 25.5 degrees and 110mm, but I've now read two separate articles (Motorcycle.com and AMCN) that say the 2011 ZX-10R model actually received a mildly revised steeper Rake/Trail of 25.0 degrees, and 107mm. So the 2011 Kawasaki pdf is actually presenting 2010 model Rake and Trail numbers. An editing mistake I expect.
Second,
The power and torque 'conversions' Kawasaki makes are inaccurate. They are only rule-of-thumb conversions, but are dressed-up in formal technical specification style to appear 'authoritative'. They aren't. The decimal places imply a level of precision that doesn't exist within their conversion results. The conversion precision displayed is actually an order of magnitude in error and that leads to significant cumulative error in any subsequent conversions and comparisons based on them (pathetic really).
For instance, Kawasaki's 2011 ZX-10R Canadian conversion figure (given above within this thread) are inaccurate;
Claimed US & Canadian model power numbers;
Max Power 131.7 kW (179.1 PS)
Max Power Ram Air 138.3 kW (188.0 PS)
But when precisely converted (hp to kW) you get;
Accurate conversion of US & Canadian model horse power to kW numbers;
Max Power 133.5 kW (179.1 PS)
Max Power Ram Air 140.2 kW (188.0 PS)
So which of those two Kawasaki figures is 'accurate', the kW figure, or the horsepower figure? Or are neither reliable? We don't know because Kawasaki is very sloppy with its numbers and is claiming a precision data consistency that is simply not present or justifiable.
Then when you check the official Kawasaki PDF spec 'data' you find the same conversion factor imprecision, again! (from the pdf);
"PERFORMANCE
Maximum power 147.1kW {200.1PS} / 13,000 rpm
Maximum power with RAM Air 154.4kW {209.9PS}/ 13,000 rpm"
When checked (hp to kW) we get;
Maximum power 149.2kW {200.1PS}
Maximum power with RAM Air 156.5kW {209.9PS}
It's only about 1% error per conversion but again you're left wondering which is the correct value (if any), and how were these measured? It refuses to say (at least Honda does specify). This is also not bias, or an error as such, this is just very sloppy meta-data (that people are accepting is realistic). This stuff always amazes me, why be cumulatively inaccurate when you could just as easily be entirely accurate all the time?
But to be fair, Kawasaki's pdf specs section endnote says:
"...The specifications mentioned here apply to and have been achieved by production models under standard operating conditions. We intend only to give a fair description of the vehicle and its performance capabilities but these specifications may not apply to every machine supplied for sale. Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Ltd. reserves the right to alter specifications without prior notice. Equipment illustrated and specifications may vary to meet individual markets. Available colours may vary by market."
--
In real-world terms Kawasaki did, "...give a fair description of the vehicle and its performance capabilities...". And they did reserve the right to secretly change model specs at any time so they are not actually 'lying' (as some might have already concluded).
A admin at this site already tried to point out, the 11,000 rpm verses 13,000 rpm issue is almost certainly an error. Remember the 2008 ZX-6R California model's detune that neutered power at a lower RMP peak but did not change redline (which it gasped to approach in top)?
That was 'corrected' via a 5-cent jumper wire in two minutes (and pretty silly for California to be discouraging bike buyers when car and truck pollution is the far bigger issue and energy user, per head of capita).
The Kevin Duke article on Oct. 05, 2010 stated; "The 10R's 76.0mm bore and 55.0mm stroke are retained, but the rev limit has been lifted from 13,000 to 13,750 rpm." That an the published images of the tachometer display pretty conclusively point to where the production model's 'redline' is. (not even heard of different countries having different model redlines before, so I'm pretty sure that's nonsense)
However, I did see a graph on a ZX-10R.net thread showing the difference between the standard end-can and the Akropovic end-can, which shows almost no significant difference in power between them (i.e. the standard can works great!).
But that graph (which I saved) does show the power reached ~207hp at ~13,100 rpm for both cans.
What I'm not sure of though is if this was a crank or rear wheel power measure. You would assume it's rear-wheel, right? Except, (and this is where I think actual biasing by Kawasaki has occurred) that graph shows ~207hp ... on a static rolling-road dyno? ... yet that number is logically only consistent with a RAM-AIR derived horsepower level?
Get me? How was it measured in that case?
To measure that you'd have to have the motor on a test-stand and force-fed it pressurized air. In which case, you'd see the 207hp number. But on a test stand that would mean you're most probably looking at a crank power measurement, rather than a rolling-road dyno figure.
Getting me now?
A reader on the first page suggested there's a difference of about 21 horsepower between the Canadian-US and Euro-Aussie model but when the 'conversions' are made quasi-accurately (if we assume at least one of those reported hp or kW figures is accurate) its an 18.2 hp model divergence.
I calculated several years ago that the average loss of hp from crank to RW is roughly about ~15 hp for a 600cc, and ~17 hp for 1000cc sport bike. So look at it this way.
Canadian-US: Max Power 133.5 kW (179.1 PS)
Euro-Aussie: Max Power 147.1 kW (197.3 PS)
197.3 - 179.1 = 18.2 hp
Close enough to the 17-horsepower of drive train losses for me, so if one was a crank B-hp figure (the Euro model) and the other figure is actually a rear-wheel hp figure, then they are both the same at the rear wheel. I am almost convinced at this point that the actual measured static rolling-road dyno figure will turn out to be about 180 horsepower for both the Canadian-US and Euro-Aussie 2011 ZX-10R models.
You didn't really think they were going to get another 30 hp above the stock 2010 model while using exactly the same bore and stoke did you?
Time for a little reality check, BMW knew they couldn't develop a big power advantage over the Japanese without using a far bigger bore than the Japs were, and revving it higher with superior compression and gas flow.
Power = air + fuel (mixed) and combusting at 11.8:1 ratio.
So if the ZX-10R compression ratio rose from 12.9 in 2010, to only 13.0 in 2011, but the bore and stoke remained identical while revs rose 750 rpm then all the engineers really had left was to improve the ventilation and chamber filling, mixing and extraction. So I would not expect any more than about ~15 hp or so more power than a 2010 model. Look at these basic numbers.
2010 BMW S1000RRR 999cc
Bore/Stroke 80.0 X 49.7 mm
Compression Ratio 13.0 to 1
RPM 14,000
2010 ZX-10R 998cc
Bore/Stroke 76.0 x 55.0 mm
Compression Ratio 12.9 to 1
RPM 13,000
2011 ZX10R 998cc
Bore/Stroke 76.0 x 55.0 mm
Compression Ratio 13.0 to 1
RPM 13,750
Clearly the induction and exhaust differences are DEFINATELY NOT going to put the Kawasaki in front of the BMW in max power. Sorry, but I betcha I'm right, there are no magic unicorns in Autopolis.
So don't let blurb derail logic as this will surely not be a 197 RW-hp machine in show-room trim, anywhere, it'll predictably be a 180 hp bike, because that's about what you could expect from unaltered bore and stroke and similar compression on premium fuel. You can't get around that reality. What Kawasaki are now doing (I think) with the Canadian power figures, is to start to deflate some of the unrealistic expectations Kawasaki's first-class bullshite (marketing) dept has now inflated. They stimulated interest with a fantasy, and now they have to manage and shape the approaching reality.
Some people are taking about fitting race ECUs to 'decork' this bike. Think twice about fitting race-grade ECUs to road bikes to remove electronic limits or to push up redlines or to advance the ignition with a 13.0:1 compression ratio on 95RON fuel. Street tires can delaminate hence speed limiters. The bottom-ends can lunch and pump oil under the back wheel hence rev-limiters. The TC retards ignition to reduce loss of traction so why advance it on mere road rubber? The factory is not worried about your engine or warranty, if you blow an engine they sell you bits, but if you cause a problem on their bike at 320 km/h it could cost them. They're in the business of making money, so limit you electronically, to hedge their balance sheet exposures to your dumbness. They do not do this to make you safe. Your bike is covered in warning stickers and the manual (which is full of warnings you're obligated to read and follow) warns you not remove these stickers, and even warns you to replace any damaged warning stickers!! It's all to hedging risk exposures. Fit a race ECU for road use and you assume full exposure. Of course they are going to let you do it, and charge you to do it, and take your full personal details and bike details, for any resulting legal proceeding.
With ~9% more grunt than last year, ~10 kilos lighter, a 2011 10R will have a wicked mid-range ramp, a complete rev monster. I won't be inconsolably disappointed if the Aussie 10R is 180 ponies given the suspension bits ABS options and the TC that lewd green wedgie comes with.
Conversions:
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hp to kW multiply by 0.7457
kW to hp divide by 0.7457
ft-lbs to Nm multiply by 1.356
Nm to ft-lbs divide by 1.356
ft-lbs to kg-m multiply by 0.1383
kg-m to ft-lbs divide by 0.1383
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Natural selection always gets it right over time, and you are the byproduct of about 4 billion years of it, so do try not to prove it wrong ... mmmkay?
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watthecu
Zone Head
PissingContestHere
Posts: 543
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posted October 30, 2010 01:48 PM
Edited By: watthecu on 30 Oct 2010 21:49
U 1/2 A holes INN da [WATT] color is the background you are typing on?
U 1/2 2 ass how many old farts are still here since dis site opened? None! No one died here I know of.
U holes of ass cry about a bike you can't handle. Only men ride due bill.
U Flag Gets!
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watthecu
Zone Head
PissingContestHere
Posts: 543
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posted October 30, 2010 01:59 PM
Edited By: watthecu on 30 Oct 2010 22:02
A baby crying in the food store wanting shits ahoy is that little shit barking over 114db = Would not pass tech inspection. Baby needs a bark gag on it's face, not the bike. Bike more sits than rides. Baby cries and never shuts up till they are dead and buried. You know any cry babies? There you go.
Anyone die here with a big gag pile of 200pword worth of shit steer? If you cannot ride double up and shit the pants out of the passenger.... Dis ear bike scene is snot UP year alley... borderline smack.
Anyone see some indigent that are more riddle me dis on the road than a bike needing a diaper for a rich running powermatic. These guys pee on buildings kind of drunk and yelling and now they need a diaper decibel or two. Why are not crying old homeless and baby wetters that can hum the liquid in the bottles kind of gov you running?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted November 01, 2010 06:18 AM
Element - fwd us the graph and we'll post it . FYI testing a production unit vin well into the thousands the redline is indicated in the 13s however limiter kicks in at about 11.5 spoiling the party so as I mentioned earlier who gives a shit what the redline is if you can never get to it lol . FYI all this info is in our video banned by kawasaki .
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted November 01, 2010 11:24 AM
Element put up a lucid and well thought out post.
As I said before, I am skeptical that they neutered it.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Shane661
Needs a life
Posts: 11494
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posted November 01, 2010 11:30 AM
No offense to "Element", but I'm still waiting for real numbers in the hands of real people. Not internet hype and magazine tests.
Time will tell.
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted November 01, 2010 11:50 AM
Indeed it will.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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Earthbound Missile
Novice Class
08' Silver ZX14
Posts: 47
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posted November 01, 2010 05:56 PM
If half of this is hype and half is bullshit and half is unsubstantiated rumor its still enough to make me want to put a tall windshield and some ape hangers on my 14 and call it a sport-touring bike
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Element
Parking Attendant
Posts: 18
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posted November 02, 2010 08:27 PM
quote:
Element - fwd us the graph and we'll post it . FYI testing a production unit vin well into the thousands the redline is indicated in the 13s however limiter kicks in at about 11.5 spoiling the party so as I mentioned earlier who gives a shit what the redline is if you can never get to it lol . FYI all this info is in our video banned by kawasaki .
Sorry the delay getting back, the graph is in this thread (Page 33)
http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/showthread.php?t=94784&page=33
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Natural selection always gets it right over time, and you are the byproduct of about 4 billion years of it, so do try not to prove it wrong ... mmmkay?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted November 02, 2010 08:34 PM
ah ..posted at kawasaki's marketing mouthpiece. I see.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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fish_antlers
Administrator
The Truth is Out There
Posts: 21894
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posted November 02, 2010 08:36 PM
FYI ... easy to hit "33" pages when each "page" is only 10 posts long.
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What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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splat
Parking Attendant
Posts: 21
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posted November 12, 2010 04:03 PM
http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2010/11/188-hp-2011-kawasaki-zx-10r-on-the-dyno/
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