CofeZX10
Parking Attendant
Posts: 13
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posted April 29, 2008 08:08 PM
Spongy Brakes on 06 10R
I have had this bike since she was new. I have always thought the rear brakes were soft and spongy, not that i use them that much anymore. The front brakes seemed OK, compared to my GSXR 750, they are soft also. GSXR has rock solid feel. I bought a vacuum bleeder kit after being told the old school way of pump and hold, then release the bleeder, will take for ever.
I started with the rear, and OH MY GOD, I could not believe the contamination level! The fluid in the caliper was BLACK. The rest of the fluid was off color and could have gone a little longer. I was surprised the level of contamination considering the amount of use.
Anyways the vacuum bleeder SUCKED! It drained the old stuff quickly, but i could not get itto firm up. I did it old school and the pedal had a much better feel, better than ever. It could probably be better, but i will live with it.
The front fluid again was not to bad, but benefitted from being sucked through and cleaned. Again the bleeder was a waste of time and I did it the old way. I started on the left, then the right, then the top. The feel is a little better, but definitely not right. It has enough stopping ability for me to ride it and not be freaked, but i want that solid, confidence building feeling like my GSXR. And yes I have switched the fluid on it also.
Does anyone have any tips or tricks to try? Has anyone had the same issues?
  
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philmy3rdleg
Expert Class
Posts: 209
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posted April 29, 2008 08:42 PM
Get a radial MC
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted April 30, 2008 08:14 AM
The 06 has a radial MC.
Vacuum bleeders suck for getting the brakes air free. But they are good for fluid changes. The rear brakes generate a lot of heat because of their small size and high pressure. Hence the nasty looking burnt fluid.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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evil kaw
Novice Class
BOOM!
Posts: 42
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posted April 30, 2008 02:37 PM
I just replaced my lines with braided ones and had the same issue. I pulled through with a vac bleeder first at the left caliper, then right, MC last. Then did it 'ol school in the same order. However, here is the trick: after you get GOOD results with the old method, ride around and do some stops to heat up the fluid. Then park the thing with a zip tie or velcro strap around the lever over night. Not really tight, just a moderate squeeze. Next day, go old school again AT THE MC FIRST. You will be surprised at what comes out! My dad let me in on this secret, and a bike mechanic confirmed it. Tiny tiny bubbles will still be in the fluid even though it looks clear. By heating and compressing, they will work themselves to a high point in the system.
I s#%t you not, after all that my 10's brakes felt near as good as my Aprilia's withe a Brembo system. Only with more travel.
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-DSS
The Titanic was built by engineers, the Ark by amatures
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted April 30, 2008 03:45 PM
The brakes will back bleed just sitting there. Holding the lever will not allow the bubbles to escape and they collect at the top so when you release the lever you get big bubbles. I usually back bleed by just lightly giggling the lever to get the bubbles loosened up then slowly pull the lever hard then release it suddenly, you then see the bubbles and you create a vacuum effect by the quick release.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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evil kaw
Novice Class
BOOM!
Posts: 42
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posted May 01, 2008 05:33 PM
I'm not trying to promote "Snake Oil", but it worked for me. Speaking as an ME, changing the pressure and temperature of a fluid will expedite the separation of dis- similar fluids. And/ or gasses. The whole pressure/ tempreature thing. That said, I whole heartedly agree that forceful bleeding (hard and fast  ) works better than gentle as you will move contaminants out in a manner that is short and sweet.
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-DSS
The Titanic was built by engineers, the Ark by amatures
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted May 02, 2008 06:41 AM
Master cylinder has issues.
Brembo radial and you will see God.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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CofeZX10
Parking Attendant
Posts: 13
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posted May 02, 2008 08:52 PM
NICE!! Thanks for the great info. I will give it a shot in a couple days after i finish assembling the Sams Club swing set super structure in my back yard.
I understand the principal and hopefully i put it into practice.
I don't the components need replacing. I am sure the system is more than adequate for the street riding I am doing right now.
Thanks guys, I will let you know how it goes.
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted May 03, 2008 06:19 AM
CofeZX10;
Bleed the 06' all you want and anyway your willing. I will tell you, been there done that.
Street, they will work ok depending on how hard you use them....
Track Day, they will last two laps TOPS. Then they will turn into CRAP!
Braided lines, different fluids etc. Won't matter....
Cheers!
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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CofeZX10
Parking Attendant
Posts: 13
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posted May 12, 2008 08:23 PM
Nothing like words of encouragement from a Psycho....
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tibofew
Expert Class
Posts: 130
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posted May 12, 2008 11:25 PM
Its not the radial master cylinder that your having the problems with...The front calipers that are on the ZX-6R 03-06 and the ZX-10R 04-07 have a boring problem where the pistons sit, what happens is the piston get stuck bc they get cocked sideways, so put steel braided lines on, change master cylinder all you want ,you'll keep have the problems until you change the calipers to the ones that the ZX-14 or ZX-6R 07-08 or the new 08 ZX-10R use... Theres so many posts in every forum ive been to talking about that problem and that the only fix.
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dakrider
Parking Attendant
Posts: 5
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posted May 12, 2008 11:40 PM
I did the brake bleed that was on ZX10R.net plus changed lines and my lever only moves about one inch and is rock hard. I don't do any track days (No track available) and I don't need to change calipers to the Nissins anymore.
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kz2zx
Pro
Nobody in Particular
Posts: 1166
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posted May 13, 2008 05:45 AM
quote:
Its not the radial master cylinder that your having the problems with...The front calipers that are on the ZX-6R 03-06 and the ZX-10R 04-07 have a boring problem where the pistons sit, what happens is the piston get stuck bc they get cocked sideways, so put steel braided lines on, change master cylinder all you want ,you'll keep have the problems until you change the calipers to the ones that the ZX-14 or ZX-6R 07-08 or the new 08 ZX-10R use... Theres so many posts in every forum ive been to talking about that problem and that the only fix.
Sometimes I think I'm the only guy with an '04 whose brakes actually work.
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ASMA 47
WERA 147
www.dhowellbooks.com
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Hells Dark Lord
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
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posted May 17, 2008 05:49 AM
Dave you know the issues I have had with mine 
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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psycho1122
Pro
Posts: 1608
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posted May 19, 2008 05:58 AM
quote:
Its not the radial master cylinder that your having the problems with...The front calipers that are on the ZX-6R 03-06 and the ZX-10R 04-07 have a boring problem where the pistons sit, what happens is the piston get stuck bc they get cocked sideways, so put steel braided lines on, change master cylinder all you want ,you'll keep have the problems until you change the calipers to the ones that the ZX-14 or ZX-6R 07-08 or the new 08 ZX-10R use... Theres so many posts in every forum ive been to talking about that problem and that the only fix.
Ummmm..I have the 06'
Stock calipers, pads with fresh fluid, braided lines and a BREMBO master..DONE!
Last used super hard all day at Miller Motorsports Park. NO issues, NO fade and all the power you could ask for. This even from pullin' it down from 170 mph.
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You say PSYCHO like it's a BAD thing!!
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CofeZX10
Parking Attendant
Posts: 13
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posted May 20, 2008 08:32 PM
Did the bleed two different ways this weekend. First i did the ride it hard and hot, then lock the lever down over night. I bled the MC inthe morning and there was not much difference.
Next I looked at the plumbing and thought it might be a bubble in the crossover going from caliper to caliper. I removed the left caliper and held it up to allow any bubbles to make there way to the bleeder in the left caliper. Bled it and checked it out. It was a little better, not much.
The last thing i tried for the day was i pushed the pads all the way back into the callipers and used the vaccum bleeder on both calipers. I remounted the callipers, pumped 'em up and i would say that i got the best improvement.
The feel is noticably firmer, but not as good as my 05 GSXR. It is better than when i first got the bike. This will do until i get a chance to play with them some more. I may take the callipers apart and see if a little machining will help the bleed process or if i can see where an air pocket might hide. I am used to taking things apart and improving them.
I will let you all know what i come up with. I know that it is simply finding where the bubble or bubbles are sitting, then getting them out.
Does anyone know what the volume, bore and stroke of the stock MC is? I know that MC volume compared to calliper piston travel, bore and stroke times number of pistons has tobe greater, otherwise you will end up with long lever travel and any little bubbles will result in lots of sponge!
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