Otis
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posted October 04, 2006 11:20 AM
Couple pics of Mid-Ohio Track Day
These are shots from the STT photographer.
  
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted October 05, 2006 02:30 AM
nice pic by the way.....
now get your old fat ass out of the seat some and go faster through the corner..... 
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When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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Otis
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posted October 05, 2006 05:49 AM
Working on it brother.
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k bryant
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posted October 05, 2006 08:55 AM
Very nice. Good detail with the finger(s) at the ready.
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GUNNER
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posted October 05, 2006 09:17 AM
 Edited By: GUNNER on 5 Oct 2006 10:30
quote:
Very nice. Good detail with the finger(s) at the ready.
I was looking at those fingers and thinking that was a bad habit.. Hmmmm??? Then I was thinking possibly trail braking?? But if he's comfortable like that I guess it's his style. I've been trying to break my girlfriend of that habit lately because she has piss poor throttle control and having that finger up there all the time makes that situation worse for her.. AND yes she noticed Otis in those pics with the fingers going on.... Thanks Bud
I'm working on having her get the braking done and back on the throttle before she enters the corner. Keep in mind she's a very green rider to sportbikes. My thoughts are to keep her smooth and NOT upsetting the chasis mid corner. I do realize that as skills increase braking deep into a corner becomes more the normal and still having a finger at rest there is also normal. Man trying to teach someone how to ride a sportbike is a very tough thing to do. You don't want to overload them with information but at the same time you don't want to leave something out that may save their ass. It's tough to teach someone to NOT be on the brakes when you enter a corner and then go right back and say WELL if this situation happens then brake as deep as possibly and then pitch her into the corner hard! I'm more concerned as the teacher than she is as the student. You really do have someones life in your hands when you're teaching this stuff. AND I honestly believe that some people just can't grasp all that has to happen at one time to be smooth and fast.. AND above all SAFE to theirself and others around them.
So Kerry is that good practice or bad coming from a man with your background? I don't want to teach her the wrong way and it's possible I am.
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k bryant
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posted October 05, 2006 11:09 AM
All good statements and questions grasshopper...
I first started with the finger(s) on the levers from MX. Firing into/out of corners mean't having them at the ready would relieve arm pump. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense: instead of extending/retracting so often which is one cause of arm pump, leaving it out there left my forearms stronger for longer.
When I started roadracing, I asked Steve Baker and Kenny Roberts if this made sense. They both agreed with the logic and they both already did it, but did not give it much thought anymore. Why? Because it was simply a natural reflex action/reaction now. I thought that was the perfect answer. In addition, they almost always used it roadracing those days because the 2-stroke TZ250/500/750 series in those days, when tuned on the ragged edge, would seize violently. So unless you grabbed the clutch instantly, the rear wheel locked up and you were high-sided into orbit. When I started racing TZ750's, I had many "saves" by being able to pull the clutch in quicker with one finger already on the lever...
Anyway, why should someone use it now? Some corners I "pitch and brake" at the same time. It depends on the speed and corner. Habits are best taught from the beginning. They become habits easier that way (which of course can be good or bad....). From a safety point and not overloading someone with too much - no doubt - off the brakes and clutch in a corner. When you flick it in, all fingers on the grips. "Less" chance of tucking/sliding a tire, less chance of "upsetting" the chassis, suspension, etc. BUT......
To go faster and safer at the same time (only when you gain more experience and have a better feel on "being one with the motorcycle"), I believe you must use those two levers actively, not passively. Make sense? "Actively" is being part of the dynamic of getting everything out of your machine and abilities. "Passively" is simply going through the actions necessary to ride a motorcycle regardless of speed. Since hopefully the "passive" is obvious (just riding around). Let's look at the "active" process and see if it would make sense to you and/or your girlfriend. Remember, the beauty of motorcycle riding is that there are so many things that can be used/taliored to individual riders. Sure, you have certain fundementals required that are generic and everyone must use. But then you put your own twist on it for what works for you and perhaps very few others. It's all good!
Active Finger on the brake lever - I should point out first that you don't need all four fingers (thumb is always there) for maximum speed and leverage. If you are using your body, arms, legs, feet properly, they can take alot of load off your arms/hands/fingers when riding hard/fast. So....
Using the brakes when leaned over does many things - obviously you're braking deeper so in theory going faster; it can help stabilize the chassis; depending on the rake/trail attitude it can help change direction quicker. But you really need to be in-tune with tire grip, bar input, how much pavement/track you have to work with, and chassis/suspension action once you let off (or stay on). You have to be able to know and be confident of that precise feel as to how much or how little to squeeze to allow you to stay on the road/track or two wheels (period). It really is a feel thing that is very hard to teach. You will certainly go faster and safer learning how to still be on the brakes (front or rear) when leaned over. Each person will have there own personal demon to deal with on what the limit is in their head. It's a rare rider that has no demon and simply knows what the limit (or beyond the limit) is and exploits the mechanical aspects to the limit. Top level racers have no demon. They block it out and "actively" reprogram based on those mechanical limits with no emotionaly boundary/barrier. It constantly changes. That is when magic happens.
Active finger on the clutch lever - let's say for sake of argument, being on the clutch for an engine siezure is a mute point on a four stroke. So why use it? I use it just like being leaned over on the brakes. If I come into corner really hot (street or track), there are many times when I have the clutch in. Doesn't matter if it's slipper clutch or not (to me). I will free wheel when flicking it in for numerous reasons depending on the circumstances. I let out the clutch sometime prior to the apex (sometimes beyond...)to help slow the bike down. It can also affect chassis/suspension movement, direction change, etc. It can constantly change depending on the action taking place around you. You have to have a very good feel for rear tire traction when letting it out. You're now applying pressure to it likely from the brake (rear pedal) as well. So it can be dicey. Cornering force, braking force, engine force. It takes a good feel. "Engine" braking just isn't really considered a high advantage (in my opinion). If you are depending on engine braking, you're going too slow. Not saying it's not important, it is. But when going fast, it's not the most important, the brakes are. Two strokes have almost zilch engine compression braking. But I bet the 250 riders brake deeper than the motogp guys. But I also think the motogp bikes have adjustable engine braking systems that help with stablelizing rear wheel lock-up (as with slipper clutches).
I haven't "touched" much on the fact that the rear brake can play a significant part in all this as well. It can help or hurt with rear wheel grip, direction change, chassis/suspension action, and of course applying friction to slow down as well. Maybe that's another story....
So.... To be the fastest and get the most out of your riding/machine, you need to use them more than in a straight line. There is no completely clear answer, right or wrong as to if it is safer for a particular person. As you noted in the beginning: too much info may not be good. This could be very true for your girlfriend. But sitting her down and explaing the theories (if they make sense to you as her teacher), showing her, teaching her, will no doubt make her a better and safer rider. If a situation arrises when she is coming around a mountain curve and an animal, car, tree, etc. is in the middle of the road, she needs to know how to brake when leaned over and what may happen. If she doesn't have those skills or knowledge, she's going plow into the object, or straighten up and run off the road, and/or into a guard rail, or run into the other lane and into a car. Of course God forbid anything like that ever happens. I can tell you by fact that riding fast on the street (even not so fast), those situations arrise and having those skills have saved my life on so many occasions that I've lost count. As scary as it might sound, I recently was going very fast on a particular favorite road and traffic was completely stopped around a blind curve because of an accident blocking the road. I was very heavy on the brakes and had to go into the other lane while still on the brakes with my knee on the ground. Did I mention there were cars in the other lane? Yes, so I split the middle and stayed upright. I pissed myself. Thanked god, skill and luck for helping me out. I rode on home safe and sound. "Most" people would have auggered into the back of the car, rode head-on into the other lane of cars, or tuck the front end and crashed into all of the. Active fingers on the levers were very useful that day.....
What the hell was the original question..... Does any of the spewage help?
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Otis
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posted October 05, 2006 11:20 AM
Edited By: Otis on 5 Oct 2006 12:21
For me at least the one finger on the brake and clutch is habit, period. I've always rode like that on the street, for 20 years now, to get be able to respond that 1/100 of a second faster if something jumped out in front of me. As for the track I dont even think about it. Not at all. It's just natural for to ride that way, whether I'm tearing it up at the track or just cruising around town. Whether or not it hurts my speeds at the track I have no idea because I've never done it differently.
As far as trail braking goes, I'd never use the front brakes for that anyway. If I feel I'm too hot in a turn and need to tighten my line a tick, I just give the rear brake a little pressure and that sorts it all out. I prefer not to do that though, I'd rather have all my braking done at once so I can get to neutral then positive throttle as soon as possible in a turn.
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GUNNER
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posted October 05, 2006 11:22 AM
Thank you and I agree with the answers given. It's just tough NOT giving her a knowledge overload.. None of this stuff comes over night to anyone. BUT the road and the traffic don't know or care what you know or who you are. The hits just keep on coming for us all.
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D
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posted October 05, 2006 11:28 AM
Still waitin for yer book Mr Bryant....
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GUNNER
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posted October 05, 2006 11:32 AM
quote:
For me at least the one finger on the brake and clutch is habit, period. I've always rode like that on the street, for 20 years now, to get be able to respond that 1/100 of a second faster if something jumped out in front of me. As for the track I dont even think about it. Not at all. It's just natural for to ride that way, whether I'm tearing it up at the track or just cruising around town. Whether or not it hurts my speeds at the track I have no idea because I've never done it differently.
As far as trail braking goes, I'd never use the front brakes for that anyway. If I feel I'm too hot in a turn and need to tighten my line a tick, I just give the rear brake a little pressure and that sorts it all out. I prefer not to do that though, I'd rather have all my braking done at once so I can get to neutral then positive throttle as soon as possible in a turn.
Otis..............I do the exact same things as you do and Kerry stated for the most part. BUT my girl did have a low side tuck back in May from a mid corner panic braking issue. (caught up in Vozzie'scrash) Grrrrrrrrrrr! I do want to get her to that point of using the fingers properly, but her throttle control is very rough and needs to be smoother on and off. For guys like you or I we can do it either way and like you stated I never think about it. It's all as natural as breathing.
In my mind everything revolves around tires and taction that one has at there desposal and what road conditions are for a give situation. All I can do is try and shove many years of information in her direction and HOPE like hell the right answer will bethere when she needs it. When she noticed your finger position in those pics I simple told her I'll get you to that point later. Right now becoming smooth is your main focus.
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franz131
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posted October 05, 2006 12:49 PM
When I raced an RZ350 you needed to ride with a very light touch on the bars, I used to put my fingers on the levers to lighten my grip.
My current racebike (R6) responds to firm inputs at the bars so I've adapted by using all my fingers on the bars.
Otis, I would suggest that as you gain speed and find the time available to change direction decreasing, you will also hold the bars with all your fingers.
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MAXIMUS
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posted October 06, 2006 05:21 PM
nice pics sharp
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Hells Dark Lord
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posted October 09, 2006 09:51 AM
just a comment...you mention neutral throttle position.....most corners except long sweeping curves, wont have much of a neutral throtle position, as you will brake to the apex of the corner, then accelerat outo f the it....if you are neutral...IE coasting, you are braking too early or leaveing too late....
This isnt a rule, but a rule of thumb if that makes sense.....and Chris, trust that bike on the brakes in corners...if you are smooth is will be smooth...I brake while leaned over all the time on mine....on street tires though, and while on a knee, brking gets scary....you are fast enough you need to be on DOT's not street tires. When I changed from the Pilot Powers to DOT's my braking points and turn in markers all changed, as the bike wasnt drifting and I found myself trying to run off in the inside of corners...lol
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
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