glen073
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posted October 03, 2006 04:53 AM
synthetic oil versus mineral oil
i change my oil every 3000k's and was wandering if there is any benefits to synthetic over mineral, my 05 zx10 has done 9000k's and has had synthetic in it since 6000k's, is synthetic better or does it not make any difference? advice appreciated!
  
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salsa1
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posted October 03, 2006 09:35 AM
 Edited By: salsa1 on 3 Oct 2006 10:36
Synthetic : lower friction; less temp as a result (how much no idea;theoretical) ;preserves longer so can go somewhat longer between changes and tranny shifts smoother to mention a few...cheap insurance to me.. don't look for everyone to agree...
I believe wholeheartedly synthetic is worth the extra money on a high reving sportbike that sees hard duty as most do...
I assume mineral is regular oil...I use regular oil in my mini van and wifes car..hehe..
I believe most ZX-10R owners use synthetic...
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Salsa1
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philmy3rdleg
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posted October 03, 2006 11:51 AM
Edited By: philmy3rdleg on 3 Oct 2006 12:56
Oil is oil. Most oil is fine if you change your oil every 3000 miles. Sythetics are not any more slippery than regular oil(friction). Synthetics do retain there viscosity better then conventional oil. Which means they last longer. But they cost more, alot more. So I think if you Change your oil every 3000 miles and do mild street riding you will be fine with anything. If you do track days change your oild more often or use a synthetic. If you race find the best shifting oil and change it often. I have tried many oils and found Mobil 1, Cheveron Delo 15-40, and Shell rotella 15-40 are great shifters. But believe it our not the cheapest oil Penzoil High Milaged 10-40 shifts the best along with a specialty oil called Schaeffers Supreme 7000. I like Schaeffers' best but its not convenient.
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salsa1
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posted October 03, 2006 12:44 PM
Edited By: salsa1 on 3 Oct 2006 13:48
oil is "NOT" oil. and ZX-10R owners hardly do only mild street riding....you think? better shifting yet same in the slippery dept?? try again...Thanks..
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Salsa1
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philmy3rdleg
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posted October 03, 2006 01:46 PM
Better shifting comes from oil properties and viscosity not slipperiness. You don't want extra slippery oils in a motorcycle because it causes wet clutches to slip.Yes, oil isn't oil but I was just stating Syns aren't better untill high milage comes into play. And most all Zx10 riders ride mild compared to the track and I stated to change conventional oil more often at the track. A little wheelie or short burst of power isn't hard riding. Try again...Katchup
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salsa1
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posted October 03, 2006 02:54 PM
Edited By: salsa1 on 3 Oct 2006 16:12
Give yourself a break buddy... lots of research stating less friction offers all the benefits I have stated.. you have your own private lab proving differenty .. sure you do...can you spell Google...give it a whirl sonny..
I have been tracking additives and oil since 1976 when teflon was popular .... Synthetic oils are superior..simple... Oil is not oil.. the molecular structures and size are different to start with.. that you can get away with regular oil no one is challenging..
but whatever you have your feeling hurt thats all sport...read your post again.. you are way off track..study a few definitions before you correct educated folks...doubt it will help however...
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Salsa1
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philmy3rdleg
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posted October 03, 2006 03:20 PM
It might help. Synthetics are superior to conventional oils when it comes to viscosity breakdown. I stated that. But there are convetional oils with anti shear additives that are just as capable short term as synthetics. So if you change your oil often you will see no benefit in synthetics. If you want to spend money go ahead. I found in life the most educated folk are also the most arrogant. Not that I'm not arrogant. But it takes more than a internet hack to hurt my feelings.
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salsa1
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posted October 03, 2006 03:41 PM
Edited By: salsa1 on 3 Oct 2006 16:56
No problem.. I just happen to believe synthetic is more than a preference by virtue of the very benefits it offers in the short run as well as the long ...I sometimes let the oil in for a bit over 3000 miles and synthetics have been proved to increase a bit of HP (short term) ; it offer the re-stated benefit of lower operating temperatures (short term) and migrate around vital parts of your engine faster on cold starts ... I don't call those negligible benefits only reaped in the long run
. but I agree it is a choice in the end...sorry for the mistunderstanding..Your cool...
I don't study on all the additives conventional oils have (last 15 years) cause I have read up on way to many documents favoring synthetics.. conventional oils have advanced I imagine...studies still favor synthetics.. I know.. they cost more.. true dat....I pay gladly..
Amsoil costs considerably less than Mobil one {synthetics} for motorcycles...plan to switch over to Amsoil based on costs and lab results...no big deal...
later...
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Salsa1
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philmy3rdleg
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posted October 03, 2006 05:18 PM
I admire educated confrontations, so don't be sorry. That's how the world goes round. I also know I will be in the minority on this dispute. But I'm willing to look like an idiot just to help one guy save a buck.
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bovinespongiformencephalo
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posted October 03, 2006 09:22 PM
Synthetic, as it is used in conjunction with motor oil, is a bullshit word. Castrol synthetic is just highly refined mineral oil, for example.
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salsa1
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posted October 04, 2006 05:29 AM
Amsoil and Mobil one among other manufacturers are true synthetics....sounds rotten that Castrol is pulling a fast one.....sounds like false advertisment on their part... that does not mean all advertised synthetics are falsly advertised and a rip off......
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Salsa1
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Fastmaster
Novice Class
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posted October 04, 2006 07:46 AM
Edited By: Fastmaster on 4 Oct 2006 08:53
Just for the viscostity retention alone you would want to use the synthetic oils. Non syn. oils start to lose a major part of their ability to retain their viscostity within 700 miles or so. I read a test on this a number of years ago. Another major benefit of syn. oils is the protection you get during cold starts. They flow much faster when cold and also seem keep a thin layer of oil on parts a lot longer then mineral grade oils. For example , when you start the bike the next day. I noticed this when doing a vavle check a number of years ago on a FZR1000 I owned. After letting the bike cool for more then 24 hours I removed the cams to change the shims and I noticed how slippery the cam was as I had just started using Mobil 1. It was so slippery I amost dropped it a number of times. I must conclude that the syn oil had the ablity to leave behind a thin layer of oil for a much longer time then mineral grade oils. I think in mobil 1's tech report they mention this.
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tigger
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posted October 04, 2006 08:24 AM
Edited By: tigger on 4 Oct 2006 09:26
I use synthetic because it clings longer to metal parts, which is critical during engine start-ups. To each is own, but I use Shell Rotella T 5W40 synthetic check it out.
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bovinespongiformencephalo
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posted October 04, 2006 08:37 AM
Not all synthetics hold their viscosity well. The high zoot ester based stuff like Redline and Motul 300v are no better than mineral oils at viscocity retention. Search for unbiased testing data. There is precious little of it, since, for all practical purposes, oil is oil. Sportrider was the last to do a major cook-off I think.
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bovinespongiformencephalo
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posted October 04, 2006 08:41 AM
See if "Free 2 Wheel" has back issues on line. They did some testing years ago.
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butterthegreat
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posted October 04, 2006 08:47 AM
Synthetic oil pros - High temperature thresh hold
Tighter molecular bonds for improved lubrication and oil flow (at temp)
Tighter molecular bonds for oil longevity
Synthetic cons - High price
Generally thinner than convention oil because of the tighter bonds
Works at it's best after "broken in" (>1000 miles)
Convention Pros - Lower price
Works best for short term performance (<1000 miles)
Better for cold starts because of bigger molecules
Conventional Cons - Below Average long term performance
That's all I could remember from my essay for my ASE course....I will try to find that when I get home. Hope it helps you guys on your debate....it applies to ALL mechanical equipment...not just cars.
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salsa1
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posted October 04, 2006 09:34 AM
Edited By: salsa1 on 4 Oct 2006 14:18
I keep my bikes for long time ;have had 1992 ZX-11 since new (14 years) and plan on keeping my ZX-10R for as long ...be nuts to trust conventional oils in South Dakota climate...I know better...I race and like to get it on on the back roads with my bikes...
I make sure synthetics used are not the crappy ones.. never had a problem sorting out the best oils to use....no brainer...just have to look it up..
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/synthetic_vs_conventional_oil/
http://www.firstfives.org/faq/oil/oilartcl.html
choosing oil is not about seeking out exceptions to the rule but selecting what is best for your high dollar engine.. in this case for a ZX-10R....
But whatever run the cheap stuff if thats what ya want.... not my problem...
stay tuned folks next topic is what is the best break in procedure ....  
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Salsa1
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philmy3rdleg
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posted October 04, 2006 11:17 AM
Edited By: philmy3rdleg on 4 Oct 2006 12:18
Then a rehash on tires, break lines, and oe oil filters to finish out the year. There will be a pop quiz next year. Blase. How do you make the squiggle mark above the E. (Bla-za)
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bovinespongiformencephalo
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posted October 04, 2006 07:57 PM
If you run a turbo, synthetic is a must. If you change your oil every race, it's a waste of cash. I run Motul 300v. I like the way it smells.
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salsa1
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posted October 05, 2006 11:59 AM
Edited By: salsa1 on 5 Oct 2006 13:12
Synthetic should last for many races...thats a the whole point...besides offering superior protection under all climate and real world conditions...cash is not spent as much as some think as synthetic does not need to be changed as frequent as conventional mineral oil .. regardless if you race or not...plus you get extra hp to keep up with Rossi or Ricky Gadson...
Unless a guy drives a ZX-10R like Grandma arguments at hand favor utilizing synthetics by a huge margin...above in my last post are quick three unbiased articles supporting synthetics in high performance engines  .......first study is extensive....shows metal looses occuring during normal wear and tear an average high hp domestic engine can sustain.
I suppose some guys ride their ZX-10R only nicely and gradually reach the legal speed limit at all times in only nice weather conditions but not very many....
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Salsa1
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philmy3rdleg
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posted October 05, 2006 12:51 PM
I race and change my oil more then I want. I'm always fiddling. I like to test. So I'm always in the motor. I am testing clutch plates,springs, and fibers right now so I'm changing oil every practice day. I change every thing one at a time so to see a difference. By the way Barnett steel shot peened plates and springs make a diff but I can't tell apart the fibers from EBC's. I've also tested oils mainly for shifting reasons, Factory Pro Evo Star shift kit and other things. If I didn't test I would have never found that cheap Penzoil High Milage, the oil every one says keep out of your motor, shifts pretty darn good. Anyway I know alot of people don't tinker like I do and rarely change oil, so for them they should use a good quality synthetic. I just got a case of Royal Purple to test after my clutch tests finish next practice and race day.
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Y2KZX12R
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posted October 06, 2006 07:20 AM
Edited By: Y2KZX12R on 6 Oct 2006 08:35
Go here http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d125/Y2KZX12R/ and read the scanned pages I posted here... If you spend the time to actually read it and understand it you will be able to formulate an opinion thats not based on internet hearsay and old myths.
Everytime this topic comes up on a board I see the same old myths and regurgitated misinformation that someone read somewhere and someone said this and that and it gets posted as fact.
A few of the pages are in a smaller format...I dont know why....
If you want a copy of the actual report go here its $4
http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/articles/2000%20AI.pdf
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Y2KZX12R
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GUNNER
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posted October 06, 2006 07:24 AM
quote:
If you run a turbo, synthetic is a must. If you change your oil every race, it's a waste of cash. I run Motul 300v. I like the way it smells.
ME TO!!!!
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salsa1
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posted October 06, 2006 10:11 AM
Edited By: salsa1 on 6 Oct 2006 11:21
I'll just say I did not post a bunch of myths....use what ya like for facts and oil for that matter.. lots of good credible independent test done to date...they are not not just found from any one guy or source ....screen and see for yourself......bottom line we all need to read and determine whats study or who is credible or not.....
THOU SHALL USE SYNTHETIC
Have a good weekend....
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Salsa1
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Y2KZX12R
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posted October 06, 2006 04:43 PM
Salsa, I was just saying in general in these typw threads theres alot of he said she said about what people have read on boards on the net.
Did you read the test I posted? I found it very interesting... basically an oil is only as good as its additive package.
And the newer sj oils have less of the good stuff.
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Y2KZX12R
CompetitionCNC.com
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