Rubber Pants
Zone Head
Posts: 798
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posted March 08, 2006 12:32 PM
Superstock & R1 LE's?!?
Hey anyone know the rules in Superstock? I was just noticing the times in Daytona an the Yammy R1 (LE) 's are seemingly way faster than all the rest . Those LE versions come stock with Ohlin's forks & shoks and other goodies but are limited. Are all the rest of the factory stock bikes allowed Ohlins or aftermarket suspension etc? This seems like a way to "sneak" around the rules. Anyone?? See here.....
Provisional AMA Superstock Qualifying Results:
1. Jason DiSalvo (Yam YZF-R1 LE), 1:39.185
2. Geoff May (Suz GSX-R1000), 1:39.712
3. Eric Bostrom (Yam YZF-R1 LE), 1:40.063
4. Jamie Hacking (Yam YZF-R1 LE), 1:40.074
5. Damon Buckmaster (Kaw ZX-10R), 1:40.136
6. Aaron Yates (Suz GSX-R1000), 1:40.334
7. Steve Rapp (Suz GSX-R1000), 1:40.369
8. Josh Hayes (Hon CBR1000RR), 1:40.866
9. Aaron Gobert (Hon CBR1000RR), 1:41.101
10. Jason Pridmore (Suz GSX-R1000), 1:41.140
____________
"Ya Gotta Have Big Ones!"
speeddemons.com
   
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jimzx9r
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted March 08, 2006 03:06 PM
Superstock bikes are allowed to use any rear shock, and practically any combination of internals for the front forks. Maybe if the front forks were required to be 100% stock in appearance and internals, then the R1 LEs would have an advantage. The Ohlins fork that comes on the LEs is bottom of the line for racing, it's not nearly as great as Yamaha would have you believe. Then just look at the riders on the R1s...DiSalvo, Ebos, and Hacking...I think they would be in the top 5 no matter what bikes they were on.
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2OLD2BFAST
Novice Class
Posts: 36
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posted March 08, 2006 05:17 PM
Actually the gap wasn't as great as many expected with a Kaw and a GSXR also in the top five today, but allot has been written about the HUGE negative effect the R-1 LE will have on the privateers in Superstock racing! Check Roadracingworld.com for allot of Mr. Ulrich and his team's insight.
The bottom line in my opinion is that by adding the Ohlins suspension and let's not forget the Marchesini wheels, Yamaha has helped buy it's way to another championship rather just compete with the R-1 as it was.
Let's face it, Tommy ran really well and was in the championship hunt last season until his screw-up at Laguna, and was beating the R-1's on the now outdated 10R, while by year end, Rog was beating them as well. With a redesigned 10R coming out, and after having already lost the champoinship to Suzuki, Yamaha needed to do something to try and be more competitive this season. The easy answer was to go to the aftermarket and dress up their bike with things that could not be added later according to the rules... Now if only the privateers could afford one!
The only question left is whether or not they will grow the cojones it takes to go Superbike racing! Oh yeah, and whether or not, the other factories will go aftermarket shopping and build their own LE versions...
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frEEK
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted March 08, 2006 05:31 PM
quote:
...the other factories will go aftermarket shopping and build their own LE versions...
i sure hope so!
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warbird
Needs a job
Posts: 2739
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posted March 08, 2006 10:38 PM
Almost as bad as the Buell being approved by the AMA.............gimme a break. Then there are the NHRA rules that allow the V-Rods to be in the position they are in Pro Stock. 
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I'd Rather Be Roadracing.
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jimzx9r
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted March 08, 2006 11:32 PM
The xbrr is a real pain in the ass...the bike costs more than 3x as much as all the others it's competing against. If the R1 LE took the top 3, I would be really pissed...but right now, it's not looking so bad.
Don't even get me started on the vrods...
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2OLD2BFAST
Novice Class
Posts: 36
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posted March 09, 2006 06:07 AM
frEEK,
Would you be willing to pay almost twice the price of a 10R to get a 10R LE?
I think that bike may have seriously put a hurdle in the way of privateers being competitive in a class that the factories do not belong in to begin with! And while they might end up with the championship based on selling a LE version with high end suspension and light weight wheels, it'll be interesting to see how their privateer's results will compare to the Suzukis... Or did Yamaha just drive privateers away from their product based on the price?
If someone could extract AMA Racing's head from their behind, Yamaha would be racing in the Superbike class with the rest of the factory 1000's.
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Rubber Pants
Zone Head
Posts: 798
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posted March 09, 2006 01:41 PM
Well.......................... Yamaha 1 & 2 by 10 seconds in Superstock!
____________
"Ya Gotta Have Big Ones!"
speeddemons.com
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2OLD2BFAST
Novice Class
Posts: 36
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posted March 09, 2006 03:00 PM
Makes you wonder if buying a championship rather than running with the factories in Superbike really is the smarter strategy...
I think it suit their yellow color scheme!
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jimzx9r
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted March 09, 2006 04:20 PM
 Edited By: jimzx9r on 9 Mar 2006 16:21
I didn't see the superstock race yet, hoping to catch it again tonight. I saw the 600s and was happy to see RL win it...the kwaks probably would have finished 1-2 if the traffic didn't hold up and screw over Tommy.
I feel bad for the privateers. Before they could have bought 2 R1s, now they might only be able to afford 1 if they want the LE.
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D
Needs a job
Posts: 3365
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posted March 09, 2006 04:59 PM
quote:
Makes you wonder if buying a championship rather than running with the factories in Superbike really is the smarter strategy...
I think it suit their yellow color scheme!
Didn't worj out too well for E-Boz though.
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frEEk
Administrator
ummm... yeah
Posts: 9660
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posted March 09, 2006 09:29 PM
quote:
frEEK,
Would you be willing to pay almost twice the price of a 10R to get a 10R LE?
not twice, but an extra 50% or so (isn't the R1 LE $18g vs ~$12g list?) i'd do, cause the cost of the wheels and suspension alone is gonna run you more than that, plus assumably the factory has put more effort thna i ever could into selecting good suspension and wheels fo rht e bike.
the reason i like the idea of LE bikes is you're given the customer what so many want to begin with: an improved stock bike. look at the number of people who buy aftermarket suspension and wheels among other things. why not offer that as an option fom the factory? plus that way you are truly selling a bike that shoudl be the equal or better of the exotics in every way (handling being the one thing that Ducs and the like usually have over the jap I4s to my knowledge).
as to teh comments of the privateers having to buy LEs to compete and not being able to afford it.. assumably they normally buy a regular bike and blow all the cash on getting aftermarket bits anyway so they're not actually paying more (probably saving). if it's true what someone mentioned about the LE components not being up to snuff for racing aftermarket, then they can continue to buy the base bikes and kit them out as before and not lose any competitiveness right? i just don't know that i understand this concenr. besides which, i see hte pros of the LE concept as a streetbike more than a racebike (which i dont care much about).
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted March 09, 2006 09:46 PM
Absolutely I'd buy an LE. Why they don't follow Ducati's lead and offer levels of performance is a mystery to me. They have the pos entry level el cheapo shit bike market covered six ways, why not an upscale version?
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jimzx9r
Expert Class
Posts: 451
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posted March 10, 2006 01:03 AM
In superstock, they aren't allowed to change the wheels or the fork. The marchs that come on the LE are the forged aluminum, not the mucho expensive forged magnesium. They save a few lbs on each wheel over stock cast wheels, but the forged mags are killers because each one saves at least 6 lbs, and that's a big advantage with rotating mass. Still, the forged aluminums are definitely helping the R1s. As for the front fork, cheaper Ohlins stuff is bottom of the line for any serious racing. It's just the name...there are plenty of forks out that are much better for the price. The stock Ohlins is better than the usual fork from any of the big 4, but a stock fork with all race spec internals will perform just as well, if not better. This is just keyboard ninja speculation, but I really do not think the LEs are that incredible. The only advantage I can really see them having in superstock is the weight lost from the wheels. Time will tell, but I hope I'm right or the zx10r will be screwed all season.
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2OLD2BFAST
Novice Class
Posts: 36
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posted March 10, 2006 04:47 PM
All the above... agreed. The wheels are as much if not more of the advantage than the forks, but compared to stockers, as I understand it those forks are not only a far greater starting point as you pointed out, but also have the ability to be upgraded even further with internals...
The point I was trying to make was twofold.
First, Yamaha should not be running a factory effort against the privateers at all, but should be playing with all the other factories in SBK!!!!
Second, The price difference is huge to a true privateer that wanted to run competitive equipment in that class. Maybe in the end it wouldn't be twice the price, but it'll be close. The $12k vs. $18k outlined above is probably not as great a spread as one will really find. Most racers buying an open class bike are going to pay around $9,000 or just a little more for a new "standard" literbike because they will often get breaks on the bike either through a supportive dealer or through the factories themselves, while the LE's are running in the $19,000 bracket and dealers are far, far, less likely to "deal" on one because of their limited nature.
I think there may be evidence of validity on these assumptions based on yesterday's results... Did anyone notice that the only R1-LE's that even ran that race were the factory ones? Not a single privateer entered or qualified on one and I think that has allot to do with the price you have to pay to own one.
With all that said, I too would probably by a 10R LE if one was out there and not do the upgrades myself. But then again, I'm not a privateer trying to scratch out a living on the back of my bikes anymore either!
Just my thoughts...
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted March 11, 2006 08:28 AM
SBK? Why? They should all be forced to run the bikes as delivered to customer. Maybe then they'd start doing the really obvious shit like valving the forks and shock as if performance mattered. It isn't like the 95% of owners that park these things at Starbucks are going to give a shit one way or the other.
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2OLD2BFAST
Novice Class
Posts: 36
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posted March 14, 2006 05:37 PM
SBK, because in order to win it would come down to which factory spent the most for the highest ticket bike with the trickest stuff on the planet... Almost none of us could afford to pay for the top line tech stuff that would go into a race bike that was "stock" as sold for the street. Let the factory teams fully develop (and spend tons) making their race equipment fast, but please keep offering us as close to that performance as possible at bargain prices. I mean it's really hard to comprehend right now just how fast we can all go for around 10 or 11 grand!
Secondarily, it would be hard for the Starbucks crowd to afford their coffee once they bellied up to the bar for a race spec street bike!
Seriously, the Superstock class should be the one that is allot cheaper to run, and the factories as well as their LE (translation, expensive) versions shoould not be running there.
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