JoeyC
Parking Attendant
Posts: 1
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posted February 26, 2006 09:22 AM
break in period
What is the normal break in period on a zx-10 ? do i have to follow these exact guidelines?
  
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CrotchRocket
Moderator
Bracket Racing with Betsy
Posts: 8038
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posted February 26, 2006 09:31 AM
I always did...On all the Kawasakis I ever owned brand new, and never had a motor problem...Probably because it's a Kawasaki...
It's ok to go a 1,000rpm over at times...Most mechanics say to go for a ride then let it cool down for at least 8 hours, I never did that...I did change the oil with regular castrol 10-40 after 50 miles though...Then again at 100 miles...Then at 500 miles and at 1500 miles I switched to RedLine synthetic...
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Jason Miller StreetBike Seminars
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted February 26, 2006 03:46 PM
There are many different schools of thought, and none of them are more than opinion. Personally I believe that the engine is almost completely broken in by the time you get the bike home. I have built literally hundreds of engines and have never done anything less than running the engine hard. I ensure the oil level is correct, warm the engine to ensure the coolant level is ok, and then run it hard. The only components you (as the rider) can have control over are the piston rings. There are no other components that your wrist can effect.
If the rings are not loaded sufficiently, they will glaze the cylinder walls and be unable to ever seat properly. This can and will result in blowby, which causes a minimum of two problems: loss of comression pressure into the crankcase, and partially burned combustion gasses being introduced to the crankcase...causing the oil to become acidic, which will etch the babbit bearings.
I did a GOOGLE search on "engine break in" to see what is readily out there for info and found this: http://www.stealth316.com/2-breakin.htm
Some of the info available on the net is not good (the guy who created a website telling peole how he runs a new engine for 20 min @2000 rpm.....to allow "parts" (he never says what parts) to "machine" together....is an idiot), but there is good info out there as well.
I don't care what your final decision is regarding break in.....but allow yourself to base your choice on facts, not bias based on "that's the way we've always done it"
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Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
Posts: 568
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posted February 26, 2006 04:44 PM
www.mototuneusa.com
All my cars, all my bikes by the same procedure.
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted February 26, 2006 05:00 PM
quote:
www.mototuneusa.com
All my cars, all my bikes by the same procedure.
I agree with what you're saying, but so many people have a problem with what motoman says, so I choose to get information from more than just him....and when you look for other info, you find that there are many different people and companies who have a similar/identical ideas. All too often people consider motoman to be a "lone gunman" ......the truth is that he is just a vocal motorcycle guy who is regurgitating information that we have been using in the trades for years. The thing he does that is so well is that he actually explains why things behave in the way they do....not like the old trades guys who just tell you do it and shut up....and can't back up their opinions with logical reasoning or fact.
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted February 26, 2006 07:15 PM
I am a firm believer in not running the engine hard until the engine has had sufficient time to wear down any sharp, high, or rough parts from machining. The most important part is to do gentle heat/cool cycles for the first 100 miles. Remember all engines are made of different materials and require different break in procedures. And one thing is for sure, breaking one in gently never hurt. Run an engine hard that has a sharp or high spot, that area can break down the oil on a local level and cause a hot spot. That hot spot could seize and although not show any immediate symptoms, in the long run it may cause premature failure. Better safe than sorry.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted February 27, 2006 05:55 AM
Like I said.....it's all opinion....but PLEASE base it on facts.....
If your engine has a high spot that disturbs hydrodynamic lubrication, it will fail regardless of how gently you twist your wrist. In addition, suggesting that a babbit (lead based or tri metal) bearing can polish a hardened, nitrided crankshaft is like suggesting that rubbing bacon on a sheet of stainless steel to polish it. The same is true of the camshafts, lifters, etc. The softer material will conform to the shape of the journal....that is on of the key attributes for a babbit bearing...conformablity.
To top this all off, please exlain why differences in load will so dramatically change the clearances in a new engine to allow metal-to-metal contact, and cause this micro polishing to occur......especially when hydrodynamic lubrication will prevent ANY contact between pressure fed moving parts under ALL normal circumstances.....if metal-to-metal contact occurs at any time (other than when the engine is shut off and the crankshaft is stationary) the engine will be failing soon. As far as I'm concerned (and based on research and experience) this concept of load based micro-polishing of moving parts is bogus..... Now, I'm not saying that wear mating doesn't happen, but to say that the user can effect it is bullshit.
As far as "what can it hurt to break the engine in gently?"....my answer is LOTS!!!! Since the only things that the user can effect during break in are the rings, gently break in will result in excessive blowby.....see my previous post and the link above....
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted February 27, 2006 10:38 AM
Without going into a huge explanation, a sharp edge (which there are literally millions of on a freshly machined surface) will break though the oil film, if it didn't there would be absolutely no engine wear. Now to keep is short. Go take a chunk of steel to the grinder and push really hard against the spinning wheel. It gets hot and turns blue and the temper is destroyed. Now flip the chunk af metal around and gently push against the wheel and see what happens. The engine goes through the same process only on a smaller scale. You will get the same effect if you pour oil on that same piece of metal.
Here is the deal, lets say that 99 out of 100 engines would have absolutely no issues with no break in procedures, but one, just one, has some imperfection because of tooling that caused a premature failure because it wasn't broken in properly. Do you want to be the one that advocated the wrong advice. Don't say anything about warranty, that is a pain in the ass., going to the clueless dealer and explain to him that you just flogged the shit out ot the motor because you knew better than the engineers. Then you get to stand there while they call their friends and they all stand there laughing and pointing.
Modern rings are seated within minutes if not seconds. The problem is they can lose their temper if not properly heat cycled.
If break in is so bad, why does every manufacturer insist on it? Because it is fun? Common sense tells us that all machined parts need a bit of time.
I too have worked on literally hundred of engines, and have seen the revages of a flogged motor.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
Posts: 568
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posted February 27, 2006 10:46 AM
canadamaxxer, I know motoman personaly, he is like a brother in my family. And sometimes he is a lone-ranger but with lots of understanding of the dinamic of the engine, he has put like 5% of the info. in the web page.
When we won a 2000 civic, we did it by his procedure (and hondas are famous for burning oil), now the civic has passed the 120,000 kms, and runs like new, burns no oil, and from 5 years of use only a wheell bearing has been damaged from the pot holes.
My zx12r that you know that was recently overhauled, just RIP the F... asfalt. No isues at all.
and this bbike has so much power that in 4th gear, some people in the back have seen it spin. Runs cooler 2.
My sister Peugeot 206 1.6 tiptonic, no problems. same procedure
My friends franken (1.8 block with a v-tec 1.6 head) integra, did the break in the stupid way and started burning oil like hell. Im happy for the bastard.
words are fantastic for entretaining the weekdays nights, BUt in reality motoman way works.
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Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
Posts: 568
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posted February 27, 2006 10:53 AM
This topic has been 2 long, do as you please.
And use no oil in the engine so the parts can break in. BUt if you use oil sorry only the rings and the trans will see metal to metal.
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Eric_The_Jew
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted February 27, 2006 01:07 PM
 Edited By: Eric_The_Jew on 27 Feb 2006 13:08
quote:
If break in is so bad, why does every manufacturer insist on it? Because it is fun? Common sense tells us that all machined parts need a bit of time.
Ever heard of CYA? Ever heard of liability? That's why they do it. Just take your zx10 owners manual, for instance. If you read the section on starting off and shifting gears, Kawasaki tells you to always use the clutch when going to the next gear or severe engine damage may result, yet we all know clutchless upshifts can be accomplished without hurting anything. Kawasaki would never advocate this, however.
Any RC51 owners in here? Remember the "Soft rev" limiter that came on before the real rev limiter? Remember the flapper valve in the intake tract? Ted, please don't believe everything the manufacturers tell you is the gospel.
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted February 27, 2006 04:43 PM
It may be that an engine needs no break in. But are you dead sure? Your analogy about the shifting doesn't fly. If you don't know how to shift without the clutch you can do major damage. Anyway that is apples and oranges. They don't tell that you only need to use the clutch for the first whatever miles. So what is that they are covering by telling you to break in an engine if it doesn't need to be broken in? Will the parts last longer? Will they fail earlier if you don't break the bike in? What do they have to gain?
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted February 27, 2006 05:26 PM
JoeyC, throw out anything Marcos has to say. Everyone from CR to Eric will give you some break-in techniques and philosophies. You can learn from each one....except Marcos. I'll keep the guy at bay just so there is some sort of "professionalism" to your question. I'd hate to see this great question come out of the gate with any bullshit.
So, in between the flaming, maybe you can have your questioned answered with some validity.
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E-tard
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted February 27, 2006 06:29 PM
quote:
Without going into a huge explanation, a sharp edge (which there are literally millions of on a freshly machined surface) will break though the oil film, if it didn't there would be absolutely no engine wear. Now to keep is short. Go take a chunk of steel to the grinder and push really hard against the spinning wheel. It gets hot and turns blue and the temper is destroyed. Now flip the chunk af metal around and gently push against the wheel and see what happens. The engine goes through the same process only on a smaller scale. You will get the same effect if you pour oil on that same piece of metal.
Modern rings are seated within minutes if not seconds. The problem is they can lose their temper if not properly heat cycled.
If break in is so bad, why does every manufacturer insist on it? Because it is fun? Common sense tells us that all machined parts need a bit of time.
I too have worked on literally hundred of engines, and have seen the revages of a flogged motor.
Ted, your analogy is flawed....even if you lightly press with that piece of steel on a grinder,it will turn blue if the heat is sufficient and the time of the applied pressure is sufficient. Even still, that is only telling half of the picture. As soon as you add hydrodynamic lubrication to the mix, the whole house of cards falls apart.
I understand very clearly about the microscopic peaks and valleys, but unless we are talking about a flaw that is "massive" (on a microscopic level), hydrodynamic lubrication will hold them apart. Most of the polishing you are talking about happens on startup.....and even if there is some light polishing contact (do the math on the pressure required to force the oil wedge to fail under normal oil pressure conditions.....I don't think there is a whole pile of contact happening...) , how much less force is being applied under light load vs heavy load.....and since these terms even are so subjective, how can anyone use it as a technical enough term (or process) to rely on as an integral part of the break in process.
While it is true that a flaw can cause the wedge to fail, it is a FLAW....and if the FLAW causes the engine to fail, it was going to fail anyways. There is no way to determine whether a light load will save the engine despite the flaw, or even whether the heavy load caused the failure.
Most people complain about low power as being the major symptom...or bragging rights......of break in ......or even of engine condition. Bearings are not the cause of low power (unless they are touching...and then power issues are the least of the problems)....it is most often compression loss (ignoring tuning issues). The main culprits of compression loss are the rings. What would be interesting would be to do dyno runs and oil samples of identical engines broken in using different methods. Since blowby gasses are so bad for oil, it would stand to reason that the engine with pooly seated rings (and resulting lower compression or leakdown) would be the one with the lower power and the worst oil sample.
Heat cycling rings? Really? So you are saying that you have such a scientific mind that you can sense when it is time to shut the engine off? That is amazing..... I will agree about one thing....overheating the engine is bad...and sometimes new motors will get hot.....but the idea that a tight motor will loosen up over time is scary. No engine I have ever built has left my engine stand while tight.....tight means something is wrong and WILL be failing soon.....
I advocate (as does Motoman), that the engine needs to be at operating temp before the break in begins. This gives an opportunity for the cooling system to work out any air locks, circulate, pressurize, etc. The engine should be monitored during this process and any faults dealt with.
The fact of the matter is that by the time a new owner gets his bike home, the bike has been started and warmed up any number of times.... and any flaws noticed at the very least during the PDI. This removes that part of the process.....so what we're left with is the final warmup before the first ride.
Even during that warmup (let's assume 5 minutes), each piston moves up and down approx 5000 times, which means that the light polishing you want so badly is being done during the warm up. If light loads continue, the pressure exerted on the rings is very low and they will have a hard time seating before the crosshatching is worn off. This means the blowby will be higher than an engine that is subjected to intermittant heavy loading to seat the rings....
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted February 27, 2006 09:03 PM
Cams spinning in the cam towers is a perfect example. Rotating twice the speed of the crank, I have yet to see a wiped out head from spinning too fast by break-in.
You want to know what really wears out an engine? Contamination. All those tiny stones cutting lines on the cylinder walls the air cleaner couldn't capture. All the bits of clutch material from both the friction and steel plates rubbing away. Ever see that gray cake sitting at the bottom of the sump cover? More than once, the oil gave all this debris a trip through critical pressured engine channels and tubes. All to slowly wear out a throw-a-way toy. Down the road, did the break-in kill the engine, or lack of filter element changes? A sump clean would be in order as an interval service inspection.
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E-tard
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted February 27, 2006 09:57 PM
quote:
Cams spinning in the cam towers is a perfect example. Rotating twice the speed of the crank, I have yet to see a wiped out head from spinning too fast by break-in.
You want to know what really wears out an engine? Contamination. All those tiny stones cutting lines on the cylinder walls the air cleaner couldn't capture. All the bits of clutch material from both the friction and steel plates rubbing away. Ever see that gray cake sitting at the bottom of the sump cover? More than once, the oil gave all this debris a trip through critical pressured engine channels and tubes. All to slowly wear out a throw-a-way toy. Down the road, did the break-in kill the engine, or lack of filter element changes? A sump clean would be in order as an interval service inspection.
a small point..but still important....the cams turn at 1/2 the speed of the crank......
I completely agree about service (or lack thereof) as being a major contributor to the death of engines....
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted February 27, 2006 10:19 PM
"...the cams turn at 1/2 the speed of the crank......" Thanks for the correction. That is what I meant.
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E-tard
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Marcos Peguero
Zone Head
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posted February 28, 2006 04:01 AM
Speedgene, no flame here. I just say use the motomans way, and before i was joking (about the oil).
I have my experiences and more, Anyone here with experiences...............
PS. the forum is to share info. and compare notes. If you point down someone notes or opinion 100% you must have some solid logic.
canadamaxxer I love to read your notes by the way. and I have some interesting data about engine contamination.
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted February 28, 2006 08:27 AM
quote:
Ted, your analogy is flawed....even if you lightly press with that piece of steel on a grinder,it will turn blue if the heat is sufficient and the time of the applied pressure is sufficient. Even still, that is only telling half of the picture. As soon as you add hydrodynamic lubrication to the mix, the whole house of cards falls apart.
Heat cycling rings? Really? So you are saying that you have such a scientific mind that you can sense when it is time to shut the engine off? That is amazing..... I will agree about one thing....overheating the engine is bad...and sometimes new motors will get hot.....but the idea that a tight motor will loosen up over time is scary. No engine I have ever built has left my engine stand while tight.....tight means something is wrong and WILL be failing soon.....
I
When I talk about heat cycling the rings, I am talking about accelerating moderately then backing off over and over for say 100 miles.
Listen the break in theory can be testes easily with a 2 stroke engine. Set up a 2 stroke with the minimum recommended clearance and go and and pin it and keep it pinned. That thing will likely seize up big time. Then do the same thing, but this time run it gently for some time and then pin it and keep it pinned. Take both engines apart and look at the difference. One can set up a race motor with more clearance and avoid nasty stuff happening but the longevity of the motor is compromised.
It all boils down to this. If you want to break in your engine do so. If not, don't. If you believe you know better than people who have processed literally thousands of warranty claims (the mfgs.) and have seen what a careless break in can do. Fine, have at, it is only your time and money.
Me I prefer to run it in gently and have it in good shape as long as possible. Like I said, better safe than sorry.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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canadamaxxer
Pro
Posts: 1090
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posted February 28, 2006 05:26 PM
quote:
quote:
Ted, your analogy is flawed....even if you lightly press with that piece of steel on a grinder,it will turn blue if the heat is sufficient and the time of the applied pressure is sufficient. Even still, that is only telling half of the picture. As soon as you add hydrodynamic lubrication to the mix, the whole house of cards falls apart.
Heat cycling rings? Really? So you are saying that you have such a scientific mind that you can sense when it is time to shut the engine off? That is amazing..... I will agree about one thing....overheating the engine is bad...and sometimes new motors will get hot.....but the idea that a tight motor will loosen up over time is scary. No engine I have ever built has left my engine stand while tight.....tight means something is wrong and WILL be failing soon.....
I
When I talk about heat cycling the rings, I am talking about accelerating moderately then backing off over and over for say 100 miles.
Listen the break in theory can be testes easily with a 2 stroke engine. Set up a 2 stroke with the minimum recommended clearance and go and and pin it and keep it pinned. That thing will likely seize up big time. Then do the same thing, but this time run it gently for some time and then pin it and keep it pinned. Take both engines apart and look at the difference. One can set up a race motor with more clearance and avoid nasty stuff happening but the longevity of the motor is compromised.
It all boils down to this. If you want to break in your engine do so. If not, don't. If you believe you know better than people who have processed literally thousands of warranty claims (the mfgs.) and have seen what a careless break in can do. Fine, have at, it is only your time and money.
Me I prefer to run it in gently and have it in good shape as long as possible. Like I said, better safe than sorry.
Once again, you are using a false scenerio to attempt to prove a hypothosis.... The 2 stroke engine that is being pinned is overheating and seizing.....that is no big secret.....
1) 2 strokes are completely different animals with regards to the method of the piston(s) getting lubrication.....
2) going the the extreme of winding any engine out to prove the point that it is going to fail is stupid and obvious. To stand there and say "I told you so" in this situation is like saying the same thing after convincing someone to punch themselves in the face to prove that it hurts....
3) The last time we got into this arguement, you mentioned the tempering and heat cycling of the cam chain.....this time it's the piston rings.....which is it? Why do the reasons for your opinion change, but yet your fundamental position stays constant....
4) We DO think we know better than the manufacturer.....don't be a hypocrite.....everytime we put on a pipe, a power commander, an air filter, play with tire pressures, etc.....even suspension settings, we are contradicting the engineering of the bike.....which means we are contradicting the letter of the law put down by the manufacturers....and in some cases even the GOVERNMENT......so if we all know better than the bike manufacturers about such things as thin head gaskets and the effects they have on the engine, why do the manufacturers know so much more than us on break in?
You are right about one thing....break in method is a choice. When someone posts to these forums regarding an issus such as this, they need to hear that there is more than one opinion. Decisions about things like engine break in needs to be based on science and logic......and I encourage people to sift through both sides of the arguement and make a decision based on the facts presented.....
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bovinespongiformencephalo
Pro
variant Kreutzfeldt-Jakob
Posts: 1060
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posted February 28, 2006 07:17 PM
Why not just base it on reality? There is far more variation in power and reliability resulting from manufacturing tolerances than there is from the method chosen to run-in the motor. Read the last 7 or 8,000 posts worldwide on the subject (that would be in the last 5 minutes or so) and you will see that no two methods are alike and yet all bikes end up at just about the same place.
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted March 01, 2006 11:20 AM
First of all after you do break in a 2 stroke you can pin it. and run the shit out of it. But you must break it in first. The manufacturer has constraints they must abide by you know things like Noise, Pollution, costs. So we put on stuff that they can't. But if you want to see what a mfg can do without constraints, look no further than MotoGP. Break in is a completely different animal. What the people here present as facts about break in is a look at a very narrow window. There is much more going on here then meets the eye, of the opinion of a guy that flogged his bike and traded it in with only a few thousand miles on it. Yeah it ran good, but how would it run after 20000 miles? Go ahead and smoke, you may live to a ripe old age, but what will the quality of your life be? Same with your engine. IMHO
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Eric_The_JEw
Expert Class
Posts: 266
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posted March 03, 2006 05:18 AM
Edited By: Eric_The_JEw on 3 Mar 2006 05:28
Ted, here's the way I look at it. What manufacturers have to gain by recommending this type of break in is less warranty claims. The more you baby a motorcycle, the less the chance it will break.
It's quite simple really. The chances of a motorcycle having a mechanical related failure at 13,000 rpms are much higher than at 6,000. Most standard warranties only last 12 months, and the majority of riders will only do 3,000 miles a year. If the manufacturer can find a way to talk you into putsing around at 4,000 rpms for the first 1,000 of those 3,000 miles you will be riding during the warranty period, it's a win-win situation for him. For a full 33% of the warranty period, they've GREATLY mitigated the chances of any type of mechanical failure to occur.
Whether you wind your bike all the way to the limiter at 0 miles or at 15,000 miles, you take the same increased risk of breaking something. Kawasaki just doesn't want you beating the hell out of it during the period when THEY will be taking care of the repairs. Remember, KHI is a business. They want to make money. They want to save money. They will do anything within reason or the law to do so.
I, personally, would want my mechanical failures to occur during the warranty period. If I buy a brand new bike and only plan on putting 1,000 miles on it during the 1st year (i.e. the warranty period), i'll be damned if I wait until the warranty period is over to start beating on the thing!
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speedgene
Zone Head
Posts: 996
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posted March 03, 2006 03:13 PM
Eric, I believe the factories still run their proto types 24/7 at max RPM. They do this for durability and failure tests. Besides, motorcycles have been redlining ever since the day they were new. Then add more abuse (and neglect to the same bike) as it changes from owner to owner.
See how I look at it? Nothing scientific, just looking at the decades of bikes still going, and going, and..... I see beautiful vintage hardware out road racing, and dirt tracking. You can hear high R's on the straights, lap after lap.
You're warrantee is somewhere pie'd to the price of the bike. Beat the shit out of the bike is my motto. If my 14 breaks, I'm not going back to the dealer. I'll just throw it in the back of the truck, head to KHI, place the tail gate down, throw it in reverse, and slam on the brakes as hard as hell, so the bike slides out of the bed right in the lap of the front entrance way.
Guess what? It will never happen.
As hard as I've been with ALL of my personal bikes, I know the 14 is about to laugh in my face.....just like all my other bikes.
Or, stated another way:
Guy in a long trench coat walks up to a poor old lady, and opens his coat. The old lady looks up, and says, "You call that a lining?"
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E-tard
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