silver12r
Novice Class
Posts: 74
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posted September 03, 2005 03:43 PM
Overheaing - GETTING PISSED
K&N, CA Emissions removal, Area P Exhaust, TRE all done AFTER the overheating problem began. I replaced the coolant with engine Ice and the bike stays super cool at night and when you keep it running. The minute I get over 186 degrees is when trouble begins (I get over the hill and into the valley the SOB is on fire). It won't overheat (and by overheat I mean 215) until I quit rolling. The second I stop the temp races to the top. Boiling over begins @ 215 degrees and pukes all of the coolant outta the reservoir. The jackass service guy I talked to said that the bike is supposed to run at 220 degrees. That'd be fine if it didn't boil over 5 degrees below that...
I replaced the radiator cap, same problem. I shut the bike off but leave the key on so the fan can continue to run and restart a few seconds later and the temp drops like a rock telling tme the thermostat is probably opening. Theres no oil in the coolant and no coolant in the oil.
The bike is still under warranty and i don't know what kind of hell they're going to give me when I go in with the mods....
Should I return everything to where it was originally (total PIA) or should I roll the dice? Would a PC3 solve my problem?
Grrrrrr. i waited 2 weeks for that friggin radiator cap and i was banking on it. Now I can't get in for service for a week. Shit it's going to have been 2 months of no riding by the time I get this problem fixed dammit....
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
  
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted September 03, 2005 05:56 PM
A couple of things. Thermostats will stick and give you problems. When in doubt swap it out and save yourself some grief. Also it the system doesn't pressurize the coolant will begin to boil at a much lower temperature. The system needs to be pressure checked. Also remember that just because the gage says something it can be much hotter in other areas of the engine and can easily begin to turn to gas and then bad things happen.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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silver12r
Novice Class
Posts: 74
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posted September 03, 2005 07:20 PM
Thanks for the tip. I'll pressure test the system and the cap tomorrow.
I'm also pondering just pulling the thermostat. I could live without whatever performance gains come from the extra temperature if it keeps me from nuking the motor.
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Rubber Pants
Zone Head
Posts: 798
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posted September 03, 2005 08:26 PM
quote:
Thanks for the tip. I'll pressure test the system and the cap tomorrow.
I'm also pondering just pulling the thermostat. I could live without whatever performance gains come from the extra temperature if it keeps me from nuking the motor.
It will be a bad idea and just g et hotter!
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"Ya Gotta Have Big Ones!"
speeddemons.com
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osti33
Needs a job
Posts: 2973
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posted September 03, 2005 09:46 PM
Don't take the thermostat out. That is a really bad idea.
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silver12r
Novice Class
Posts: 74
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posted September 03, 2005 11:15 PM
quote:
It will be a bad idea and just get hotter!
Interesting. Out of curiosity, how will removing the restriction in my water flow make the bike run hotter?
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Mjollnir
Parking Attendant
Posts: 29
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posted September 04, 2005 12:09 AM
The thermostat (even when it's open) slows down the flow of coolant through the engine and enables it to transfer heat more effectively.
When you remove the thermostat, the coolant flows more quickly and doesn't have time to transfer as much heat from the engine to the radiator as it would/could if it was flowing a bit slower.
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trenace
Needs a job
Posts: 3056
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posted September 04, 2005 12:14 AM
 Edited By: trenace on 4 Sep 2005 19:27
I understand that to some that may make "intuitive" sense but it does not make physical sense.
Transferring a greater quantity of fluid through a radiator per unit time, provided there is no cavitation, results in greater total cooling, regardless that the fluid spends less time in the radiator.
If any disagree, it is unlikely that anything anyone can write can persuade differently, as only non-physics-based thinking would yield the opposite conclusion in the first place. So each, please take it or leave it as you see fit, post that it's nonsense if you like, but saying so does not make it so.
Those that wish to think about it, first consider any given area, for example first square inch of area exposed to coolant, of the radiator.
Rate of heat flow from coolant to radiator (and then to atmosphere) is dependent on three things: the thermal property of the fluid with regards to heat transfer, some materials transfer heat better than others; the temperature of the coolant; and the temperature of the radiator at that point which is a function of the first two things and of the rate that the atmosphere is carrying heat away from that radiator.
Speed of fluid flow is not one of the factors.
If the fluid flows slowly, then a greater amount of heat will be drawn from that particular volume of fluid at that point. Accordingly, at the next segment of the radiator we might consider, that segment will absorb heat at a slower rate than if the fluid flow had been faster, since it will be receiving coolant that isn't as hot as if the flow were faster.
So what happens with slow-flowing coolant is that indidivual volumes of coolant exit the radiator at a lower temperature (if inlet temperature were the same), but the total volume is less. The total cooling power depends both on the temperature change and the volume of coolant so cooled per unit time.
The total heat transfer from the coolant is equal to the total heat absorbed into the radiator.
Accordingly, in the case where the inlet temperature might be the same, while faster-moving fluid comes out of the radiator warmer than in the case of slower-flowing coolant, this effect is exceeded by the volume being greater, with the total cooling power being a product of both the temperature change of the coolant and the amount flowed per unit time.
Or, another way of looking at it: Suppose your purpose is to to heat the air. And you have a radiator with air blowing through it at a good speed.
How to get the most heat thrown off of that radiator and into your room or wherever? By pumping near-boiling hot water through it slowly, or fast? (Assuming no cavitation.)
Fast. That way even the tail end of the radiator is pretty warm or even hot, rather than being much less hot as would be the case with slow flow. So even the tail end of the radiator is transferring a good amount of heat to the atmosphere -- indeed the entire radiator is transferring more, given same inlet temperature.
Well,, what transfers heat to the air fastest is what takes heat out of the other side of the system fastest as well, since the two values -- heat in and heat out -- are equal.
In fact, the situation is even better than described above, because the caveat "given equal inlet temperature" doesn't apply. Since the radiator transfers heat more efficiently, the amount of heat absorbed from the engine by the coolant matches rate of heat transfer to atmosphere only when the coolan is cooler at the radiator inlet than in the instance with slower flow.
I suspect (having run into this topic before) that many will not accept that, and so be it, for that reason as well as the above being I think sufficient I won't argue it. The reverse is a common belief, but not all common beliefs are correct.
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Mjollnir
Parking Attendant
Posts: 29
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posted September 04, 2005 01:06 AM
Edited By: Mjollnir on 4 Sep 2005 04:10
I understand what you're saying, and I agree with it. I was just looking at the "problem" of heat transfer from a different perspective - more from the point of efficiency, rather than effectiveness.
I think there's a bit more to it than either of us have described, and I think that the real answer is a combination of both, possibly with some other points as well.
I suck at thermodynamics and fluid dynamics...
Edit: I've just realised that my original post was about a completely different problem (which may not be relevant here), pertaining to the removal of the thermostat.
Feel free to disregard it.
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silver12r
Novice Class
Posts: 74
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posted September 04, 2005 11:04 AM
I'm not familiar with how the coolant passages are routed through the 10R. Is cavitation a possibility with a properly bled system?
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted September 04, 2005 01:16 PM
Cavitation (the formation and subsequent collapse of vapor bubbles in a fluid) should not be a problem in a system with proper pressure. So if you have the right cap and no leaks, there should be no cavitation. BTW, cavitation starts at the point of lowest pressure, normally the suction of the coolant pump. This can really degrade the flow from a pump. There is also a possibility of localized boiling at hot spots within an engine. This isn't a problem until there is so much boiling that a vapor blanket (or steam pocket) covers a considerable area. Higher coolant velocities tend to "scrub" this steam blanket away. However, higher velocity coolant trying to turn sharp corners can present other flow problems. I couldn't even venture a guess as to how the coolant flows in the coolant passages of a ZX-10R engine. I can say that we used to run restrictors in our stock car engines instead of thermostats. The engine builder said that in a small block Chevy, that's the best way to go. I never questioned it. (I'm sorry silver. I know I haven't been much of a help)
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12RPilot
Pro
Posts: 1094
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posted September 04, 2005 01:23 PM
Oh yeah. I also wanted to add that, in my opinion, trenace is 100% correct. And I've been dealing with this stuff for a while.
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If you aren't an AMA member, you're part of the problem.
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TedG
Moderator
Posts: 8222
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posted September 04, 2005 06:21 PM
Removing the thermostat will be a good indicator if that is the culprit.
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Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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silver12r
Novice Class
Posts: 74
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posted September 05, 2005 12:17 AM
Edited By: silver12r on 5 Sep 2005 01:19
I'll try and pull it tomorrow.
So I guess I'll be the guinea pig on this one then? 
BTW, what's the best way to be positive the system's properly bled?
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fastestbusaaround
Needs a life
I eat Fish...
Posts: 7889
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posted September 09, 2005 09:05 AM
My 10R runs at 160+ at 80MPH+ in 75 degree weather. When I get to a light, it goes to 198-207 within 1-2 minutes. I have seen it hit 238 in bad traffic on a 90+ day but still didn't boil over. It routinely sits at 210-214 in traffic and doesn't boil over. My wife's R1 runs at the same or hotter temperatures and doesn't boil over either, but the fucking engine heat on the rider is nothing short of gross and disgusting. (My Busa runs cold by comparison to all of these 1k bikes...never gets hotter than "warm"...coldest running sport bike I have ever seen). The only reason I would think you are boiling over at these temps would be a bad t-stat IMO, air or a leak in the system...215 is on the high side of a normal running temp in the city on these things but not that bad...and every 1k bike I have ever driven was like that, but they never boiled over, especially at those temps. Just my .02 cents worth...What temps do most of you run on your 10r's? (sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, was just curious...)
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