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posted June 13, 2005 03:10 PM
F*@KING BRAKES Ok as you can tell I am flipping ticked off. As much as I love my 10, I hate the brakes equally as much. I have no love for the brake system on this bike what so ever. I have done everything I know to do to make these brakes feel better, well as well as stock brakes can. But I will tell you, out of all the bikes I have had in the past few years, from my wifes 01 EX500, 01 ZX6R, 02 ZX12R, 03 ZX6RR, and now my 04 ZX10R, the 10's are absolutely the worst.
The ZX6RR had basically the same setup on it and the brakes even stock were good, after a set of lines and EBC HH pads they were as good as I could have ever wanted. The 10 isnt even ok stock. I have half a lever travel before I get a decent feeling lever. No room for brake fade there......
I have just bled the brakes for the 4th time, and even had Roger mess with it twice. Still the same.....crappy......I just flushed the system and put all new fluid in it, and its still feels the same. I know I need to invest in SS brake lines and good pads. But I shouldnt have to do that to get brakes that are atleast decent.....
I guess I will be ebaying it and looking for a set of SS lines sometime soon. Just sucks, I have a trackday on saturday and its a new track, and I know this track (Putnam) is hard on brakes......Its not leaving me with a warm fuzzy.....guess I will ride the intermediate group that day..... ____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
posted June 13, 2005 04:09 PM
One reason is you may have warped rotors or carriers that don't let the rotors run true. What that does is push the pads outward and makes for long lever travel. When disk brakes were first released on motorcycles they would put in a bit of "warp" to kick the pads back out. Now it is supposed to depend on the o-rings flex to return it. You are probably fighting a piece of crud in the semi floating disk carrier.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
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Posts: 3212
posted June 13, 2005 04:50 PM
Edited By: redelk on 13 Jun 2005 17:59
Well, the results of my "The 10R brakes gotta be better than this" project will be known by the end of this weekend... hopefully.
I had thought of using a 636/6RR master cylinder, but I was concerned about the piston size being smaller than what I was looking for in the way of feel and response. I finally desided to "bite the bullet" and ordered a Brembo 19 x 18 master cylinder, a set of Gafler Superbike brake lines and Gafler HH pads from CalSportbike.com. When thinking about the best set up for my "project", the Brembo was a "given", but where the "experiment" part comes in is with the Gafler SBK brake lines.
Since I only got so-so results from putting on "conventional" s/s braided lines, I figured that I'd try something different. If the Gafler Superbike lines are anything, they are "different". Unlike regular lines, the SBK lines do NOT use a banjo bolt at the caliper. Instead, the line basically threads directly into the caliper.
Also, over the years, many racers used lines with a 2mm ID bore (aka "-2"), while most lines for street applications were 3mm (aka "-3"). Though the 2mm lines gave a light touch, it was a tad overkill and most racers have either switched back to 3mm lines or had lines custom made. All the while, most racers were just wishing someone would make something like a 2.5mm line, supposedly resulting in the "best of both worlds". The SBK lines are not this "magical" 2.5mm. They are 2.8mm.
When I got all my parts and tried to install them, I ran into a problem. The SBK lines were for a ZX-10R... using the OEM master cylinder. On the OEM unit, the lines connect on the right side. On the Brembo, they connect on the bottom and at a slight downward angle. In other words, the lines won't work and CalSportbike (or anybody else I know of) does not list any lines for a 10R using a Brembo master cylinder.
Needless to say, at $95 a pair, I was rather disappointed and was not sure what I could do. I really wanted to use these lines, but if I tried to install them, they would bind. Enter Todd Robinson, General Manager of CalSportbike to the rescue. When I e-mailed him this morning about my problem, he kindly offered to have Gafler custom make a set of SBK lines (with the Ultra-Poser "smoke/faux CF covers) specifically for my application and will put them in my hands by this Friday. In addition to that, he has already sent a UPS call tag and RA number for me to ship back the other lines. The real "rescue" part is that it is all at no additional charge.
Brembo does make a add-on switch for your brake light, but it costs around $50 to $70. CalSportbike offers a banjo bolt that has a internal pressure switch for $19.95. The banjo bolt switch does require one additional crush washer as a "spacer" when used with the Brembo, but the SBK lines comes with two "spare" washers anyway, so that is not a problem.
As for the Gafler HH pads, I'm not that sure how they will work. When I ordered the other stuff, I had a choice between two kinds of Gafler pads (HH or Green 1532), EBC HH or Ferodo XR Racing HH pads. I have read where some were not pleased with the Ferodo pads and if the Gaflers don't wok out, I can always get EBC pads anywhere.
The reason I went with the Gafler HH pads instead of the Green 1532 is that the 1532 pads sounded to be more "race oriented". That might be cool for poser points and I could have just as easily got some Performance Friction pads like we use on our race bikes, if that is what I was wanting. In reality, anyone who races knows that even in the most spirited of street riding, will rarely heat up race pads enough to worth a crap. Kinda like putting take-off tires on your bike to ride to the local Sonic. You won't heat the tire up enough to even get the "boogers" to wear off.
So, even if you choose to go with a Brembo, remember that most brands of s/s lines normally for a 10R will not work. The connecting ends at the master cylinder will need to be turned about 90 degrees from where the would be for a OEM master cylinder.
More to come when the new lines arrive.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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posted June 13, 2005 04:58 PM
Oh yeah, even though I use a Mighty Vac when bleeding my system, I also have a set of Goodrich Speed Bleeders from CalSportbike. I've had them for a while and believe that they were a good investment as well. It's all part of that "I want to be ABSOLUTLY sure I have done everything I can to make my brakes better" deal.
Also, Motul 600 is my regularly preferred brand of fluid, but since the team goes through Castrol SRF like no tomorrow, they'll never miss the "little bit" I use when I open a fresh can. It also doesn't hurt that we're currently getting the liter can of SRF for a little over $30, either.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
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Posts: 7981
posted June 13, 2005 05:46 PM
I have not tried that swft, but you can bet that tomorrow I will.....and I will clean out all the crap from the caliper as well. Although I just had the calipers off a few days ago and they looked good, but I know tha tdoesnt mean they are good.
Sherm I am interested in hearing how your saga turns out. I really dont want to go the Brembo master cylinder route, but I will if need be. I just want good brakes, and will spend what is needed to do that. But I dont want to go crazy with the credit card either.....
I have had very good luck with the Goodridge SS lines, and they will probably be my first choice and some good fluid, I just changed the fluid, but it was with a cheap fluid, but its fresh, and clean. I would like to think that I got all the air out of the system, but you know how that goes.......It just ticks me off to have a bike that is a great as the ZX10 and for it to have factory flaws like crappy brakes and that SHIT LCD tack.....If kawi doesnt fix that tack soon, I am going to jump ship, dar I say it, and try the new GSXR1k.......I really dont want to, but Kawi is calling my hand.....lol
P.S. I will never turn my back on the green machine, but dayummmmm they need to hear what we are all saying......
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
posted June 13, 2005 05:57 PM
it's all in the master cylinder. you have to change it to get a better feel. BREMBO!!!
the brembo is next on the list. i'v done ss lines and removed the heat shields with no luck.
posted June 13, 2005 06:14 PM
As mentioned the MC is the weakest link. I have SS-lines, Motul RBF600 fluid and have a dbl banjo bleeder ( air bubbles rise), removed the SS wafer thin shims from the OEM pads and have a solid lever with room to spare if fade becomes an issue on the track.
posted June 13, 2005 08:16 PM
I am totally confused by this whole topic.... perhaps I was dealt a considerably "better" 10R by the luck of the draw, cuz my brakes are an 11 on a scale of 1 to 10.. the are every bit as good with stock lines as the 12r was with braided and EBC pads...
odd.
____________ What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
posted June 13, 2005 09:09 PM
No, fishbreath, you are not the recipient of a special 10R. That one went to xxs. The "feel" that hecks dim serf is talking about is the lever travel. When he takes out the anti chatter wafers it will firm up a bit. If he learns to ride he might regret it, because they do make a difference in heat buildup that he will notice almost instantly if he actually uses the brakes. The tenner has outstanding brakes. Better than some aftermarket set-ups I've used. The stock pads are HH with fade and chatter free hot and cold performance and great feel almost to lockup. They do lose some feel at the extreme, but that is the only weakness. Damn good for a disposable japcycle. I went ahead and added braided lines and a Brembo 19x20 MC since I like a really firm lever, but retained the stock pads, as I can't imagine getting anything to work better with the stock rotors. You want shit brakes get a Gixxer 1000. Dunno about the new one, but my 02 had brakes that would have sucked on a moped. Brrrrrr. Man that brings back some bad memories. One of the first things I noticed about the Kaw was just how damn good the brakes were right out of the box. The soft lever does take some getting used to, but it never affected performance. Alway have all the brake I need, and on a favorite run that has 66 corners in 7 miles while dropping 2,500', that is a lot of need. You should come back again this summer. It's the same, except Dolan has like 30 more bikes.
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posted June 13, 2005 10:35 PM
HDL, it doesn't hurt in the fact that the Brembo also has an bleeder valve at the master cylinder, either.
Oh yeah, I recently rode a '05 Gixxer 1K. Overall, I was rather impressed with the whole set up. It was a very clean and stable platform. I actually like it better than the R1 I rode a while back and I thought that it was going to be the bike to beat. Maybe it is the adjustable Vortex rearsets I have, but the ergos of both the Gixxer and the R1 felt more like a cruiser than a sportbike. I felt pretty low in the seat on both of them. Maybe it's because I'm kinda short (my lil' belly/"tank pad" is actually shrinking), but it was a little harder for me to get up on the tank of those two bikes when compared to my 10R. They also felt just a tad "bigger" than the 10R.
The Gixxer's cluster blows the 10R's away, but I thought it rather silly to put the dime sized shift light on the bottom of the cluster, instead of on top like the R1. I really don't use the shift light on the 10R, even though the -1 counter sprocket has it lighting up far more often than it did originally. I'll agree that the tach has never been anything to write home about and I'd almost prefer a DataTool Rev Light over the OEM tach, I've learned to deal with it.
All in all, I am still rather pleased with my 10R and it has been the bike I've been looking for over the past six years. It has also been the best thing that has happened to improving my riding skills, next to a STARS school. I'll happily keep my 10R, even if it seems there are a few minor "warts". Like I said earlier, I'm dealing with the "brake issue" now and my next venture will likely be with the suspension.
I had the suspension tuner that does our race bikes play with my 10R for a little bit and it really helped it a lot. All the same, I'll probably go ahead and get a shock and the forks revalved when ever I can scrap up the money. Besides the Jardine slip on and BMC filter, I'm not that interested in "improving" the engine performance. It's good enough for me right now. Since I am doing more track days, I'd rather work on getting the power to the ground in way that is more stable and I can handle (instead of trading it in for a EX250).
The suspension stuff is a while off yet. I'm still wanting to get some cheap race plastic to run at the track. Kinda hoping Godfather Racing comes out with something for the 10R soon. Fit and finish is really that important to me since I'm currently using the trashed bodywork from when Jonathan had his little mishap last year.
____________
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Ernest Hemingway
Needs a life
living life, and loving it.
Posts: 7981
posted June 14, 2005 12:34 AM
hmmmmmm.....guess I better just go to the track and learn to ride.........fuk it, who needs brakes......I am too slow to worry about brakes......lmfao
I will pull out the anti chatter waffers, or what the hell ever they are called and see if it helps. If not I am really not out anything. I use the Pazzo racing shorty levers on the bike and realy like them, but I have the barke lever pushed out as far as it will go for the street, so I am not really confident in on the track. Will give it a shot and see what happens.......
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
posted June 14, 2005 04:10 AM
i dont know if they did somthing different on the o5 but my brakes feel alot better than my other bikes wich were 2003 12r,2003,636.
posted June 14, 2005 07:22 AM
On my ride home last night I paid attention the my brakes, especially the lever travel, mine travels very little before serious brake action. Granted I have the lever all the way out (big hands) but even under the most severe conditions I may use 1/3 of the available travel. You need to pay attention to what I said earlier about rotor runout, and at least eliminate that as a problem. If there are people who are not having the problem, that means it is not inherent to the system and something is amiss. Changing lines , pads, MCs may help mask the problem but you still need to find the source. There are 4 major reasons for long travel,
1. Expansion in the system (lines expanding).
2. Compressible substance in the system (gas in the lines or mechanical flex)
3. Incorrect hydraulic ratios.
4. Excessive pad retraction.
____________
Ted
2000 Green ZX12 sold
The fast color!!
Green 2005 ZX10R
2009 Concours Black ABS
posted June 14, 2005 07:46 AM
My thought on members who have "bad brakes"... perhaps in prep the dealer didnt remove the shipping coat off the rotors? (it's there.. and they are suppose to remove it... part of the PDI)... could that somehow impregnate the rotors?
thanks bovine... I didnt think I was the only one with amazing brakes... I dont even have to type now... just read what he said.
____________ What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
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Posts: 7981
posted June 14, 2005 06:58 PM
Well went out and rode the 10 tonight after flushing the brake system and putting new fluid in. I pulled out the little wafers, I dont think tha twill play into this. They are so small they dont displace enough fluid to matter.
The brakes feel better, but still arent right. I will add SS lines when i can and see if that helps. It cant hurt. i dont want to go and put and all new brake system on the bike, but i will end up doing what is necessary to make it right....this just bums me out....
I checked the rotors tonight for being true, adn they are very good, not a hint of warp at all. Will keep searching for the issue. I find it hard to believe there is air in the system still, but I guess its possible......will keep digging
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
posted June 14, 2005 08:17 PM
as redelk talked about what ss lines to use with the brembo master. just order the ss lines for the 05 zx6. those will fit.
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Posts: 7981
posted June 15, 2005 01:20 AM
No I havent freek, mine is the only 10 I have ever ridden. To be honest though it really doesnt matter though. This one is mine and it doesnt feel right to me, whether its the same as another one or not isnt the point. But I understand what you are saying. This could be me just over reacting, I am very particular about my brake systems on my bikes. After riding last night I think alot of my problem is line expansion, so I wil replace them. I have had very good luck with Goodridge lines and will try a set of those next. I am about 80% sure that will make them good enough for me to feel comfortable with them. Flushing the fluid and putting new in made a pretty good difference. When I replace the lines I will go to a better fluid like the Motul, or something equivalent. That should make things much better.
I am not very handy as to be trying to build my own lines Bovine, would prolly be cheaper for me in the long run just to buy a set and bolt them on......lol And I am not a big fan of the lines running around the out side of the forks, I coudl just see what happens to them in a lowside.....
____________
When in doubt, lean farther and go faster....
posted June 15, 2005 01:24 AM
even if u could jsut get a chance to give a squeeze to teh brakes of a couple other 10s, that would at least tell u if something is actually wrong with ur bike or if that's jsut hte way the 10r is. good luck in getting things to meet your satisfaction in any case. i feel yer pain brother
posted June 15, 2005 07:29 AM
okay.... so since everyone ignored my comment about the shipping coat, have you THROUGHLY cleaned the rotors and then tried the brakes with new pads AFTER the cleaning in the event that the shipping coat was never properly removed and the pads are contaminated?
Why do I have to type thigs twice .
____________ What business is it of yours where I'm from, Friendo?
posted June 15, 2005 07:38 AM
Well, I like to think of myself as somewhat of an expert on lowsides. I can assure you it is not an issue, and it definitely makes brake and wheel service easier. Braided lines will help a lot with feel, and I certainly understand your concerns regarding lever travel. My point is, unless something is wrong with either your brakes or your bleeding technique, you should not be experiencing anything like a performance related issue. How did you bed in the brakes?
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posted June 13, 2005 03:10 PM
posted June 13, 2005 04:09 PM
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